Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

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Avoice
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Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #1

Post by Avoice »

Christians hold Jesus to be God. At least most of them believe this.

They believe God died to pay the price for the sins of man.

I'd like to know just who is he paying this price to ? Himself?

Christians believe man can kill God. That's absurd.
It's just as rediculous as God dying so he can pay himself.

Christians see the God of the (falsely called) old testament angry and having little compassion. But claim Jesus to be loving and merciful. What mercy is there in the (falsely called) new testament?
Who is merciful?

Let's compare the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A god who forgives our sins if we just acknowledge them and change our ways? A God who says one sins will not even be remembered.

Or the Christian God Jesus? ACCORDING to Christianity SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE.
Imagine a courtroom and God sitting on the bench. A criminal is told he will be put in prison if he does not pay the million dollar fine. He has no money. He is led out if the courtroom to begin his sentence when someone stands up and tells the judge (god) that he'll pay the million dollars. God accepts the money and then let's the criminal go free.
Where's the mercy? A merciful judge doesn't demand someone pay the price.
How is Christianity's opinion of god merciful?
A merciful God shows mercy. How is a demand of payment merciful?

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #11

Post by bluegreenearth »

1213 wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:00 pm In Bible sinful person deserves death.

Bible tells the reason why Jesus came was to declare the good news.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:18-19

Because of that, people killed him, obviously, what else could be done to person who heals and wants to set people free. And that is why and how it can be said, he paid the price of our sins, he died because of our sins. People who would have deserved death, got the forgiveness and because Jesus declared it for people, he was killed and got the wage of sin, which is death. It does not mean his death was require as a payment for forgiveness. It means, he got the wage of sin (death), because of sinful people.
If the death of Jesus was not payment for forgiveness because people were able to receive forgiveness prior to his death, then wouldn't people have retained their ability to be forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus? If people would have retained their ability to be forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus, then how was the "good news" Jesus was preaching not old news?

If the people who received forgiveness after the sacrifice of Jesus continued to experience death as the wage of sin in the same manner as the people who received forgiveness before the sacrifice of Jesus, how did the sacrifice of Jesus function as payment for sin if death was and continues to be earned by everyone without exception as the wage of sin regardless of whether they've been forgiven of their sins or not?

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #12

Post by bjs1 »

Avoice wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:42 am Christians hold Jesus to be God. At least most of them believe this.

They believe God died to pay the price for the sins of man.

I'd like to know just who is he paying this price to ? Himself?
As far as I am aware there is no biblical or official Christian explanation for this. Christians believe that by his death Jesus made a way for us to be right with God. Theologians have devised a few different views on how that works, but none of them can be considered the “correct” or “Christian” explanation.

That said, I will give you may take on this.

Mercy requires sacrifice. This is true in every setting and every kind of mercy. If we are talking about mercy from God or mercy from other people, mercy always requires sacrifice.

Let us imagine that I throw a ball through John’s window and break it. A price has to be paid for the window to be fixed. That price is paid to the window repair man. Interestingly, the window repair man did nothing wrong and he was not wronged in any way in this scenario. None the less, the price must be paid to him.

The only question is who pays the price. For justice to be served, I would have to pay that price. I was the one at fault, so I should pay for the repairs. On the other hand, John could decide to show mercy to me and not demand that I pay for his window. In that case, John would have to pay the price to repair his window. For John to show me mercy requires that he sacrifice his money to pay to repair what I broke.

To quote the opening post “SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE.” It is either me (justice) or it is John (mercy), but some SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE.

Now let us apply this truth to God. I have broken God’s law. More than just the individual sins such as dishonesty or selfishness or a lack of compassion, I have fundamentally denied my Creator His right by insisting that I should have ownership of my life instead of Him.

Someone must pay the price for this. It could be me (justice) or it could be God (mercy). But somehow the price must be paid. I believe that God has chosen mercy by paying the price Himself.

However, nothing I can do can cost God anything. A Supreme Being needs nothing from me and cannot be harmed by me. Here we find a paradox: God must pay the cost to show me mercy, but nothing I do can cost God anything.

This paradox is resolved in Christ Jesus. God became a man in the incarnation. God left the glory of heaven to experience the highs and lows, the joys and the humiliations, of human life. The reason for this, according to Jesus in the Gospels, was to “give his life as a ransom for many.” He became human so that he could die a human death. By his death he paid the price that mercy requires. He was not paying the price to Himself. Rather, he was paying the price of mercy because if that price was never paid then genuine mercy would be impossible.

The sacrifice that mercy requires was paid by Jesus Christ on the cross so that redemption would be possible for anyone who wants it.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #13

Post by brunumb »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:16 pm The sacrifice that mercy requires was paid by Jesus Christ on the cross so that redemption would be possible for anyone who wants it.
Jesus didn't pay anything because he didn't stay dead. Pretty much like John making a bank transfer payment for the broken window on Friday and then reversing the transfer on Sunday.

I don't see how mercy necessarily requires a sacrifice. Offering forgiveness without payment is true mercy given out of love. Gods can't be killed so the whole God/Jesus thing is more like an underhanded business transaction to manipulate gullible human beings.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #14

Post by Ataraxia »

Avoice wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:42 am No, he was sacrificed to the Father, who is the First person of the Holy Trinity.
Still only one God in Christianity though. So technical hair splitting of trinity notwithstanding, the basic message is that God came to earth to save humanity from himself, correct? By sacrificing himself to himself.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #15

Post by nobspeople »

Avoice wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:42 am Christians hold Jesus to be God. At least most of them believe this.

They believe God died to pay the price for the sins of man.

I'd like to know just who is he paying this price to ? Himself?

Christians believe man can kill God. That's absurd.
It's just as rediculous as God dying so he can pay himself.

Christians see the God of the (falsely called) old testament angry and having little compassion. But claim Jesus to be loving and merciful. What mercy is there in the (falsely called) new testament?
Who is merciful?

Let's compare the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A god who forgives our sins if we just acknowledge them and change our ways? A God who says one sins will not even be remembered.

Or the Christian God Jesus? ACCORDING to Christianity SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE.
Imagine a courtroom and God sitting on the bench. A criminal is told he will be put in prison if he does not pay the million dollar fine. He has no money. He is led out if the courtroom to begin his sentence when someone stands up and tells the judge (god) that he'll pay the million dollars. God accepts the money and then let's the criminal go free.
Where's the mercy? A merciful judge doesn't demand someone pay the price.
How is Christianity's opinion of god merciful?
A merciful God shows mercy. How is a demand of payment merciful?
Good questions!
I haven't seen a legitimate answer to them that makes sense yet - maybe someday?

I've often wondered, why am I being asked to feel for or be thankful to someone for 'paying a price' for something I didn't ask to be paid?
Them: "That man over there paid your electric bill. Don't you want to thank?"
Me: "Why did he do that? My bill's already paid up current."
Them: "It doesn't matter what you asked for or need, thank him!"
Me: :confused2:
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #16

Post by bjs1 »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:57 am Good questions!
I haven't seen a legitimate answer to them that makes sense yet - maybe someday?

I've often wondered, why am I being asked to feel for or be thankful to someone for 'paying a price' for something I didn't ask to be paid?
Them: "That man over there paid your electric bill. Don't you want to thank?"
Me: "Why did he do that? My bill's already paid up current."
Them: "It doesn't matter what you asked for or need, thank him!"
Me: :confused2:
If you do not want the price to be paid for you, then it has not be paid. You have no need to thank anyone since nothing has been done that will benefit you.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #17

Post by nobspeople »

bjs1 wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:26 pm
nobspeople wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:57 am Good questions!
I haven't seen a legitimate answer to them that makes sense yet - maybe someday?

I've often wondered, why am I being asked to feel for or be thankful to someone for 'paying a price' for something I didn't ask to be paid?
Them: "That man over there paid your electric bill. Don't you want to thank?"
Me: "Why did he do that? My bill's already paid up current."
Them: "It doesn't matter what you asked for or need, thank him!"
Me: :confused2:
If you do not want the price to be paid for you, then it has not be paid. You have no need to thank anyone since nothing has been done that will benefit you.
Too bad many Christians don't see it this way. :?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #18

Post by bjs1 »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:23 pm
bjs1 wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:26 pm
nobspeople wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:57 am Good questions!
I haven't seen a legitimate answer to them that makes sense yet - maybe someday?

I've often wondered, why am I being asked to feel for or be thankful to someone for 'paying a price' for something I didn't ask to be paid?
Them: "That man over there paid your electric bill. Don't you want to thank?"
Me: "Why did he do that? My bill's already paid up current."
Them: "It doesn't matter what you asked for or need, thank him!"
Me: :confused2:
If you do not want the price to be paid for you, then it has not be paid. You have no need to thank anyone since nothing has been done that will benefit you.
Too bad many Christians don't see it this way. :?

Indeed. Though, for my part, I have never met a Christian who did not see it this way.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Purple Knight
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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #19

Post by Purple Knight »

This is something that deeply befuddles me as well. Now God made these laws of the universe that demand a price be paid for a wrong. He could as easily unmake them or simply write in an exception. It's certainly conceivable that he doesn't; so far I can understand wanting wrong = debt to be immutable. That's a good universe, ne?

But wanting this rule that every wrong digs a hole of debt to be immutable... but transferable? That defies logic and explanation. It creates a universe where you can torture a chicken to death because you sinned (yes, Jews actually do this) and debt = paid. As far as I'm concerned that's the same as saying there are no immutable debt holes for wrongs to begin with. Murder somebody? No biggie. That sin of murder? Well I just transfer it to the next guy I murder and he burns in Hell instead of me. For the last one before I die I'll use a chicken. And done.
bjs1 wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:17 pmIndeed. Though, for my part, I have never met a Christian who did not see it this way.
The really batty ones disappear up the buttcrack of the universe when anything they say has to be written down, such as on a forum. I'm more and more thinking they're a very small minority but wherever they are, they tend to be a vocal one. Or perhaps the batty ones are artificially magnified by those trying to smear all Christians (I'm thinking Southern Baptists holding their gay hate flags). Regardless, they do exist.

I can even be charitable on this particular issue and say they want you to give thanks in case you see the light when you die, or at some future point, and decide it was something you needed after all. We generally do use this rule with other people, and don't spit in the face of a giver and at least offer thanks even if it's something we don't immediately want. It's the nice thing to do, after all.

Still, there are batty ones.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #20

Post by 1213 »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:33 am This is something that deeply befuddles me as well. Now God made these laws of the universe that demand a price be paid for a wrong. ...
I think something has been misunderstood, if people think so, because Jesus and his disciples forgave sins without any payment structure.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

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