Apologetics assignment/the existence of evil

[JeffO]

Greetings,

I'm a Christian and a seminary student who has just taken an Apologetics class. One of the assignments is to have a real or imagined dialogue with a non-Christian or Christian struggling with the intellectual aspects of their faith, e.g. via a forum like this one. I considered doing an imaginary dialogue, but not only is that more difficult, it is also subject to certain pitfalls (e.g. setting up strawmen). Also, I will readily admit that apologetics has not been my strong point in the past. Thus, in order for myself to profit most through this assignment and also in order to hopefully profit someone else, I thought it best to try to engage in a real conversation via this forum. And so I'm inviting anyone who's interested to an intellectual discussion over an issue of Christianity (e.g existence of God, problem of evil, inspiration of the Bible, resurrection of Christ, etc.). *I trust that if this forum is not the place for this, one of the moderators will inform me.

While I'm open to other suggestions for a specific discussion topic, perhaps it would be best to focus it by beginning with a question to either a non-Christian, or a Christian regarding the existence of evil and suffering and how it relates to the truth of Christianity. How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

[Tcg]

While I'm open to other suggestions for a specific discussion topic, perhaps it would be best to focus it by beginning with a question to either a non-Christian, or a Christian regarding the existence of evil and suffering and how it relates to the truth of Christianity. How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

The group "non-Christian" is of course rather broad. There are a great many theists that would be included and many would likely answer this question very differently than atheists. They would also likely answer it differently than other theists. Atheists have no set dogma so you'd likely get many different answers from them as well.

Is there some reason to expect that humans wouldn't experience suffering?


Tcg

[JeffO]

Is there some reason to expect that humans wouldn't experience suffering?

Thanks for your response Tcg, and your question. On one level, my answer is no. But I would immediately clarify that by saying that suffering as a problem doesn't make sense apart from the existence of the Christian God. Would you agree that human suffering is, objectively speaking, a problem?

[bluegreenearth]

Greetings,

I'm a Christian and a seminary student who has just taken an Apologetics class. One of the assignments is to have a real or imagined dialogue with a non-Christian or Christian struggling with the intellectual aspects of their faith, e.g. via a forum like this one. I considered doing an imaginary dialogue, but not only is that more difficult, it is also subject to certain pitfalls (e.g. setting up strawmen). Also, I will readily admit that apologetics has not been my strong point in the past. Thus, in order for myself to profit most through this assignment and also in order to hopefully profit someone else, I thought it best to try to engage in a real conversation via this forum. And so I'm inviting anyone who's interested to an intellectual discussion over an issue of Christianity (e.g existence of God, problem of evil, inspiration of the Bible, resurrection of Christ, etc.). *I trust that if this forum is not the place for this, one of the moderators will inform me.

While I'm open to other suggestions for a specific discussion topic, perhaps it would be best to focus it by beginning with a question to either a non-Christian, or a Christian regarding the existence of evil and suffering and how it relates to the truth of Christianity. How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

Could the meaning of the term "evil" be subjective to the person using it?

[Diagoras]

[Replying to JeffO in post #1]

Welcome to the forum! I’m not a Moderator, but I think I speak for quite a few people when I say it’s refreshing to see someone post the reasons behind starting a new topic. I’m hopeful that knowing just that little bit about you might set the tone for a more helpful and productive debate.

Purely as a suggestion, how about framing a debate a little more like this:

RESOLVED: “The existence of evil is incompatible with a Christian worldview.”

I’m not sure I currently have enough time to join in and do this proper justice, but I’d like to think that plenty of others would be keen. You might want to also suggest some limits on the number of rebuttals and counter-arguments though - threads here can get derailed onto tangents and run on for pages and pages very quickly! That would make ‘tidying it up’ for your assignment quite a chore.

That’s purely my opinion though. I hope you get some value from posting here, whatever unfolds.

All the best,
Diagoras

[Miles]

How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

Evil (doing the profoundly wicked) is sometimes a conscious choice where empathy has taken a holiday, and sometimes it's a matter of mental disorder, as in the case where some people are so constructed, either through nature or nurture, or both, that they delight in hurting others.

Suffering is generally an upper degree of hurt on the scale of discomfort. Stubbing one's toe on a table leg might sit at the bottom of this hurt, while pulling a hamstring in a game of soccer may sit a bit higher, and loosing a loved one in a car accident may produce a great deal of suffering. In all, suffering is simply part of living, whether you're a human or a hamster.


.

[Miles]

[Replying to JeffO in post #1]

Welcome to the forum! I’m not a Moderator, but I think I speak for quite a few people when I say it’s refreshing to see someone post the reasons behind starting a new topic. I’m hopeful that knowing just that little bit about you might set the tone for a more helpful and productive debate.

Purely as a suggestion, how about framing a debate a little more like this:

RESOLVED: “The existence of evil is incompatible with a Christian worldview.”

But considering that god admits he creates evil

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

wouldn't this be quite compatible with a Christian worldview?


.

[Tcg]

Is there some reason to expect that humans wouldn't experience suffering?

Thanks for your response Tcg, and your question. On one level, my answer is no. But I would immediately clarify that by saying that suffering as a problem doesn't make sense apart from the existence of the Christian God. Would you agree that human suffering is, objectively speaking, a problem?

Your welcome, JeffO.

That would depend on the nature of the suffering. If for instance I began to experience severe chest pain as a precursor to a heart attack, that suffering could lead me to seek immediate medical attention and may very well save my life. So I'd answer that no it is not always, objectively speaking, a problem. Even emotional suffering can serve a similar beneficial function if it leads us to examine our relationships and seek to improve them or in some cases end them.

To me, suffering just seems to be an expected result of being human. We see other animals suffering as well so we aren't alone in this. I'm not sure how the Christian God would be needed for this to be the case. Can you say a bit more about why you think he would?


Tcg

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to JeffO in post #1]

What is the objective of your assignment? Is it to think critically about the reliability of your reasons for believing in Christianity or is it to defend "the truth of Christianity" at all costs or is it something else?

[JeffO]

Is there some reason to expect that humans wouldn't experience suffering?

Thanks for your response Tcg, and your question. On one level, my answer is no. But I would immediately clarify that by saying that suffering as a problem doesn't make sense apart from the existence of the Christian God. Would you agree that human suffering is, objectively speaking, a problem?

Your welcome, JeffO.

That would depend on the nature of the suffering. If for instance I began to experience severe chest pain as a precursor to a heart attack, that suffering could lead me to seek immediate medical attention and may very well save my life. So I'd answer that no it is not always, objectively speaking, a problem. Even emotional suffering can serve a similar beneficial function if it leads us to examine our relationships and seek to improve them or in some cases end them.

To me, suffering just seems to be an expected result of being human. We see other animals suffering as well so we aren't alone in this. I'm not sure how the Christian God would be needed for this to be the case. Can you say a bit more about why you think he would?


Tcg

I agree that suffering can serve a beneficial function. But doesn't that imply that suffering is in and of itself a problem? Otherwise why would you seek a solution such as life-saving medical attention? And why should you expect medical personnel to try to save your life? Why should anyone try to avoid suffering, and help others - humans and animals - avoid or end suffering?

I will give a brief argument for why I think the existence of suffering necessitates the existence of a Christian God, and perhaps can elaborate more through further discussion.

I would hold that suffering matters. If so, that necessitates the existence of God, because if there is no God, there is no ultimate meaning or purpose to the universe and therefore nothing in the universe ultimately matters, including suffering.
Further, meaning and purpose can only come from a personal being, and ultimate meaning and purpose can only come from a personal absolute. Only the Christian God is consistently both personal and absolute. So the existence of suffering necessitates the existence of the Christian God.