Apologetics assignment/the existence of evil

[JeffO]

Greetings,

I'm a Christian and a seminary student who has just taken an Apologetics class. One of the assignments is to have a real or imagined dialogue with a non-Christian or Christian struggling with the intellectual aspects of their faith, e.g. via a forum like this one. I considered doing an imaginary dialogue, but not only is that more difficult, it is also subject to certain pitfalls (e.g. setting up strawmen). Also, I will readily admit that apologetics has not been my strong point in the past. Thus, in order for myself to profit most through this assignment and also in order to hopefully profit someone else, I thought it best to try to engage in a real conversation via this forum. And so I'm inviting anyone who's interested to an intellectual discussion over an issue of Christianity (e.g existence of God, problem of evil, inspiration of the Bible, resurrection of Christ, etc.). *I trust that if this forum is not the place for this, one of the moderators will inform me.

While I'm open to other suggestions for a specific discussion topic, perhaps it would be best to focus it by beginning with a question to either a non-Christian, or a Christian regarding the existence of evil and suffering and how it relates to the truth of Christianity. How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

[JoeyKnothead]

I would hold that suffering matters. If so, that necessitates the existence of God, because if there is no God, there is no ultimate meaning or purpose to the universe and therefore nothing in the universe ultimately matters, including suffering.

What if there is no ultimate meaning or purpose to the universe? Why should there be any meaning or purpose. The universe just is, and we just happen to be a very insignificant part of it. No gods necessary.

I mean, you're right and all, but did ya hafta look right at me when ya said, "insignificant part of it"?

I find among some, to many Christians, that "meaning" and "purpose" are tied into the belief in a way as to give such to those who can't seem to find em neither one of em. There's also the implication that those who ain't em religious lack[/] those things without religious belief. It's, best I can tell, all part of using religion as a tool to explain the stuff we don't know, don't understand, or can't us neither one of em.

By the very act of profering our posts for debate, we all of us display a sense of meaning (as understanding our roles herein), as well as purpose (to spread our own message about all this). Subjective? Of course. I don't need anyone but me to know we can all find meaning and purpose - we just need best we can to make sure we find us the goodn's of it, and not the bad. It seems the Christian needs to either be told that, or to find it written down somewhere, cause maybe, just maybe, they can't find em neither of it within themselves.

[Tcg]

The objective of the assignment is not so much to "win" an argument, as to gain practical skills in giving a reasoned defense of the Christian faith. Does that help?

What is your ultimate goal in gaining these practical skills?


Tcg

[Tcg]

Is there some reason to expect that humans wouldn't experience suffering?

Thanks for your response Tcg, and your question. On one level, my answer is no. But I would immediately clarify that by saying that suffering as a problem doesn't make sense apart from the existence of the Christian God. Would you agree that human suffering is, objectively speaking, a problem?

Your welcome, JeffO.

That would depend on the nature of the suffering. If for instance I began to experience severe chest pain as a precursor to a heart attack, that suffering could lead me to seek immediate medical attention and may very well save my life. So I'd answer that no it is not always, objectively speaking, a problem. Even emotional suffering can serve a similar beneficial function if it leads us to examine our relationships and seek to improve them or in some cases end them.

To me, suffering just seems to be an expected result of being human. We see other animals suffering as well so we aren't alone in this. I'm not sure how the Christian God would be needed for this to be the case. Can you say a bit more about why you think he would?


Tcg

I agree that suffering can serve a beneficial function. But doesn't that imply that suffering is in and of itself a problem?

No, not in the scenario we are discussing. The problem is whatever issue my heart is having which is causing the pain. It's like a temperature gauge in a car. If it goes into the red zone that is an indication the engine is overheating and may suffer serious damage if nothing is done to resolve the excessive heat. The temperature gauge isn't the problem, the heat is. Not having a temperature gauge would be a problem.

Given that your argument is based on the premise that human suffering is a problem and it has been shown that this is not the case, your argument is DOA. There are other serious issues as well, but given that the very foundation of your argument is flawed, they are of secondary concern.


Tcg

[benchwarmer]

Greetings,

Hi Jeff0! Welcome.

While I'm open to other suggestions for a specific discussion topic, perhaps it would be best to focus it by beginning with a question to either a non-Christian, or a Christian regarding the existence of evil and suffering and how it relates to the truth of Christianity. How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

For a non-Christian (and likely many Christians depending on their exact beliefs), evil is entirely subjective. Some Christians may claim that evil is to basically go against the will of their god. However, the devil (literally for them) is in the details as understanding the will of their god is displayed by the thousands of denominations of Christianity.

Example: Is it evil to squish a spider?

You will get varying answers depending on the person and the situation. The Bible certainly doesn't help Christians as a search for 'spider' in the Bible gets you no pertinent information:

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... rsion=NRSV

BIBLE SEARCH RESULTS
Job 8:14
Their confidence is gossamer, a spider’s house their trust.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Isaiah 59:5
They hatch adders’ eggs, and weave the spider’s web; whoever eats their eggs dies, and the crushed egg hatches out a viper.

So, I explain evil as simply a human, subjective adjective. As a social species, we use it to try and control what we do amongst each other and attempt to avoid as much 'evil' as we can. Clearly this is highly imperfect as one person's evil is another persons good or something in between. No Christianity or gods required.

Suffering is similar depending on how one defines suffering. A Christian may simply define it as separation from their god. Non theists will again have a varying subjective take on what it means to suffer. It is a way we describe various forms of pain from physical suffering to emotional suffering. There is no need for religion or any gods to explain either. Physical suffering comes from our nerves sending signals to our brains. Stub your toe and your brain likely responds by sending its favorite swear word out of your eating apparatus. Emotional suffering comes from experiencing things that we don't like or wish we could have avoided. Losing a parent for example. It takes no religion or a god to explain why we miss the interaction of a parent. Again, we are a social species and we generally survive by working well in groups. When something effects that group, especially in our 'local' group, we don't like that and 'suffer'.

From a Christian standpoint, I would think scripture suffices as far as why there is evil and suffering, but most apologists seem to run from this as generally they like to blame humans for anything not 'good'. As has already been mentioned in this thread:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

Isaiah 45:7
New Revised Standard Version
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JeffO in post #1]

How would you explain the existence of evil and suffering in a non-Christian worldview?

Not being a Christian in practice any longer (after decades of 'believing'), I haven't seen a correlation between evil and the belief in Christianity when looking at it logically, from outside said belief system.
Christianity is simply a belief system in something that's not tactile. It's highly individualized and subjective.

'Evil' is something we attach meaning to. Much like all things intangible (morality, goodness, love, and on and on) how it's defined is based on the culture at the time, as well as situation.

IMO, Christianity was designed as a way to explain things not understood, answer questions not currently answerable and used as a mean to 'lift' up those who need it and ignore their own ability to do any heavy lifting in life. The only correlation between evil, suffering and Christianity is to the impact each individual allows.