Does God have free will?

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Leox
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Does God have free will?

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Post by Leox »

First of all, God is all-knowing. That means he knows everything including his own choices regardless of time.
If God has free will. He can choose to go against his knowledge of his own future actions. But then he is not all-knowing because he can't predict his own actions.
For example, God knew Adam will eat the fruit. But he decided to make Adam anyway. Thus God wasn't really punishing Adam out of God's own liking. But it was rather part of the script.

I guess this is a more philosophical problem but I want to know how it is handled in the setting of religion.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #71

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:38 pm

What most people are asking when they talk about free will vs no free will is whether there's an inviolable script or not.
The God of the bible can control everything including "time" and cause and effect, he can control the very nature of "reality"*. In short, there are absolutely no restrains that can be imposed on him by anyone and nothing and nobody that can oblige him to do anything. If, therefore, an omnipotent God self imposes a restaint (and does not violate it) that then would because he chose to do so. The ability to make a choice free of impedement is evidence of having free will. Writing ones own script might be the very definition of free will.

God of the bible writes his own script and can (has the power/the capacity ) to rewrite it at will at any time. Unless you are also redefining the meaning of "omnipotent" it is a logical inevitability that an omnipotent Creator has free will.

* NOTE: CAUSES TO BECOME

The name Jehovah (Yahweh) has been translated as "I am what I am" as it is scholars say, based on the verb to be. However, it has been pointed out that the verb (to be) is in the causative, so arguably would be better rendered "causes to become" Thus the God of the bible's very name indicates he can be whatever he wishes to be, whenever he wishes to be it and "reality" bends to His will not the other way round.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Purple Knight
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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #72

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 amIf one has "impede oneself" one has made a choice to. Thus they have demonstrated their capacity to make a choice.
Correct, but that choice can take away further unimpeded choices. If I spring a bear trap on my own foot, I can no longer choose where to go. If that bear trap were to take away all of my further unimpeded choices, I would no longer have any, and by the definition that free will is the ability to choose unimpeded, I'd have taken my own free will away.

But I think we can both say that whether or not a being has free will has to do with that being's mind and self, not whether anyone else was keeping it as a slave. It's a question of human nature, which is retained even though slavery. This is why the ability to choose unimpeded is a poor definition.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 amA voluntarily self imposed a restriction is defacto a choice,
You're now using a definition I like much better because it's more to the point of the question of free will. But I can't say whether I agree or disagree with this statement. Suppose I find the part of my brain that generates temptation to do something and I cut it out. Or maybe I'm a thief and I cut off my hand to avoid stealing again, because it'd be hard to steal with my foot or my teeth and I know I'd get caught.

In the moment though, me without the hand has actually surrendered to the temptation. My choice is to steal, and I bloody knew he would which is why I cut off my hand. But I don't get to actually steal because of a previous choice I made. Taking aside the matter of mutilation for a moment, I'm not sure how much credit I should get at this point for not stealing.

Now in reality I didn't steal. In reality, the werewolf with no other option who springs a bear trap on his own foot doesn't kill anyone that night. So in reality, punishing would probably be wrong. However, I'm attempting to consider the matter purely morally. And yes, with respect to your analogy which I agree with that we can choose even if we cannot act on that choice.

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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #73

Post by Kylie »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:13 am
Kylie wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:08 pm

Please tell me, what is the functional difference between your definition and mine?
I dont know what you mean by "functional difference" but If free will was having different options, it would not be intrinsic. It would only come into existence when the options did. No options, no free will. If it is a capacity, then it exists entirely independent of the existence of options. Thus a man gagged and tied in a cellar, still has free will even when his situation affords him no choices. He could still choose if he had the freedom to. He can still choose, even if it is only hypothetically (ie he has the capacity to think..." If i were not tied up, I'd [choose to] kill whoever did this to me").


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Well, yeah.

If you fall out of a plane, you have only one option - you go down. You don't have free will with regards to which direction you go.

How do you propose that a person can freely choose if there is only one possible option available to them?

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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #74

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #74]

If you fall out of a plane, you have only one option - you go down. You don't have free will with regards to which direction you go.

How do you propose that a person can freely choose if there is only one possible option available to them?
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Leox
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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #75

Post by Leox »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #3]

Here is how I would define free will: A being with free will can deny a predetermined path, even if that path was laid down by the being itself. And "can" here means there is a probability that the being will not follow the path.
Last edited by Leox on Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #76

Post by Leox »

[Replying to Kylie in post #74]

He still has the option to yell or cry, etc. To be truly out of option, a being must be mentally incapacitated.

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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #77

Post by Leox »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #72]

Yes, God can write or rewrite other being's path. But can God write and rewrite his own path?

Say he wrote the first path as version 1 and rewrote it to version 2 at a later point.
When he creates version 2, version 1 is invalid. Since God is all-knowing, he would have known that he will invalidate version 1 and create version 2. Then the version 1 he wrote will be incorrect and that would indicate he is not all-knowing. So he should instead have written version 2 in the first place. Now you should be able to see. God, while being all-knowing, cannot rewrite his own script, meaning he doesn't have free will.

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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #78

Post by nobspeople »

Leox wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:25 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #3]

Here is how I would define free will: A being with free can deny a predetermined path, even if that path was laid down by the being itself. And "can" here means there is a probability that the being will not follow the path.
I like it. It makes me wonder if a being has free will, can there ever be a predetermined path to begin with? Not that they're mutually exclusive, but it seems if there's a predetermined path out there, someone or something is in charge and may not even offer a free will as an option.
Might not be thread appropriate, but just a thought based on your definition. :P
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #79

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Leox wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:44 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #72]

Yes, God can write or rewrite other being's path. But can God write and rewrite his own path?

Say he wrote the first path as version 1 and rewrote it to version 2 at a later point.
When he creates version 2, version 1 is invalid. Since God is all-knowing, he would have known that he will invalidate version 1 and create version 2. Then the version 1 he wrote will be incorrect and that would indicate he is not all-knowing. So he should instead have written version 2 in the first place. Now you should be able to see. God, while being all-knowing, cannot rewrite his own script, meaning he doesn't have free will.
I see nothing of the kind. A change is not synonymous of an error.

Even if we, as humans induge ourselves that we actually understand the notion of time, and presume to impose a linear vision of it, on a being that must by definition exist outside its constrains, the future does not in reality exist outside of the present and an omnipotent being can obviously manipulate both. For example, if you can travel back in time, you've changed the present before it has happened.

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Really it is ludicrous to attempt to impose a time or time continum constaint on omnipotence.

Logic



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Leox
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Re: Does God have free will?

Post #80

Post by Leox »

One way of avoiding the conflict all-knowing and free-will is to limit the notion of all-knowing.
God can live in another dimension different than ours. He is all-knowing to our dimension but not to his dimension.

The following is not an argument but an imaginary scenario.
An analogy will be that we create a simulated AI society in a computer program. They might think they have free will but they don't. We, knowing how this computer program works, is all-knowing to them. But we are trapped in our own simulation as well. We might think we have free will but we don't.
And God, knowing how our universe works, is all-knowing to us. But he is trapped in his own simulation.

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