Is annihilation false doctrine?

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Wootah
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Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

This is the philosophical perspective.

This all assumes a just legal system.

When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.

Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.

If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.

Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.

--

Just thinking about this.

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?

--

Is annihilation false doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #121

Post by JoeyKnothead »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:47 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: A picture of claims being presented is not reliable evidence of that claim being true.
Did I say otherwise? Indeed where did I say the biblical claim is true or even suggest the information was being presented to that aim?
I merely noted you presented a picture making claims, and how bout that.
I was not aware that stating ones faith based beliefs violates subforum guidelines if you believe it does may I suggest you bring the content to the attention if a moderator.
That's why I mentioned that in this section of the site, the bible ain't considered authoritative, that you might, somehow, perhaps supernaturally, become aware of how goofy it is to present pictures of claims, as if by a picture alone those claims might somehow, perhaps supernaturally, become truth.
In the meantime I will reserve the right to answer questions asked of me as I see fit.
As I reserve the right to point at your posts, and chuckle.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #122

Post by Wootah »

I copied this part of another thread here because it seemed that both threads connected quite nicely.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:16 pm
HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a
Yes but this is connecting with the annihilation thread. Death is the end of punishment in the same way that ending a prison sentence means the end of the punishment.

If we have a criminal worthy of the sentence of death and we execute that sentence they are considered punished. Actually, I am sure there is some 'law' about if a hanged man survives the ordeal they can't be punished again (maybe that is just a Western fable). Anyway. If we have a criminal who has served their sentence in prison and we then execute them we are being unjust.

Either way, through execution, if deserved or through time in prison, the criminal has paid for their sentence. So a just God would let them into heaven. Only an unjust God would keep a person who has paid the price for their sin out of heaven.

So God would not annihilate a sinner because that would mean that God cannot justly make them serve their sentence and the act of annihilation would let them into heaven.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #123

Post by JehovahsWitness »

* NOTE : In the following exchange I MENTION what I believe to be the bible view. I am not presenting the bible as authorative, (and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum)See LINK for details:
viewtopic.php?p=1050358#p1050358


Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:25 am I copied this part of another thread here because it seemed that both threads connected quite nicely.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:16 pm
HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a
Death is the end of punishment ...
No it is NOT. I reject that view as unbiblical. Death (permanent death) IS the punishment.

As long as the wicked are dead they are being punished ( they just won't know it).
Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:25 amIf we have a criminal worthy of the sentence of death and we execute that sentence they are considered punished.
Agreed.
Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:25 am If we have a criminal who has served their sentence .....
Yes and the sentence for the wicked is as follows : "You will hereby remain dead forever". That is the sentence: PERMANENT perpetual, everlasting unending non-exitence. Once they have completed their sentence of being dead (non-existant) forever they will never be made dead again after that.



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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #124

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #123]
Yes and the sentence for the wicked is as follows : "You will hereby remain dead forever". That is the sentence: PERMANENT perpetual, everlasting unending non-exitence. Once they have completed their sentence of being dead (non-existant) forever they will never be made dead again after that.
Well, Jesus was sentenced to death forever but I'm sure glad he came back and he is the model for my argument. He took on our sins, paid the price for them, and so having paid that price then resurrected.
https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-21.htm
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
So the sentence for the wicked is not dead forever - it is until you have paid for your sins. Jesus became sin and was able to pay for it and so resurrected. I sure am glad Jesus doesn't follow your rules.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #125

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:36 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #123]
Yes and the sentence for the wicked is as follows : "You will hereby remain dead forever". That is the sentence: PERMANENT perpetual, everlasting unending non-exitence. Once they have completed their sentence of being dead (non-existant) forever they will never be made dead again after that.
Well, Jesus was sentenced to death forever
Emphasis MINE

Not by God he wasn't. Never did God sentence his beloved son to permanent non-existence! That is a punishment reserved only for the WICKED.
Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:36 am So the sentence for the wicked is not dead forever ...
It most certainly IS.




PSALM 104:35

The sinners will vanish from the earth, and the wicked will no longer exist.
MATTHEW 25:46a NWT

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off*...
* cutting-off: That is, from life. The Greek word kolasis is used in classic Greek for “pruning” or “lopping off” needless branches from trees. This “cutting-off” would be “everlasting,” since the person would be cut off from life with no hope of a resurrection.
J. Schneider, “κολάζω,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Volume III edited by Gerhard Kittel (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1965), 814, indicates the verb essentially means “maiming, cutting off.”









* NOTE : In the above exchange I MENTION what I believe to be the bible view. I am not presenting the bible as authorative, (and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum)See LINK for details:
viewtopic.php?p=1050358#p1050358
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #126

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

Pick one of those links and make your point.
For example pick Gen 6:13 So God announced to Noah, "I've decided to destroy every living thing on earth, because it has become filled with violence due to them. Look! I'm about to annihilate them, along with the earth.
Now unless I am going to learn more about JW beliefs than I ever knew I would say the earth is not annihilated. Is God a liar or are you less certain of the word annihilate now?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #127

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #125]
* cutting-off: That is, from life. The Greek word kolasis is used in classic Greek for “pruning” or “lopping off” needless branches from trees. This “cutting-off” would be “everlasting,” since the person would be cut off from life with no hope of a resurrection.
OK so is a non-Christian person alive or dead according to you?

According to the Bible, Jesus is the vine and we are grafted in, which makes a non-Christian person dead in my books until they are grafted into the tree of life and yet ... they walk around.

More dead things that aren't annihilated.

https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
More walking dead ie: another use of the word dead that does not mean annihilated.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #128

Post by tam »

Peace to you both,
[Replying to Wootah in post #127]

More walking dead ie: another use of the word dead that does not mean annihilated.
There are multiple uses of the word 'dead' or 'death' that do not mean annihilated (utterly destroyed; consumed by fire; to be no more; cessation of existence). But we can't just mix and match those usages to suit a chosen doctrine. You can't use Adam and Eve 'dying' as an example of what it means to receive the second death. You can't use anyone dying the first death to show what it means to receive the second death. On the other hand, Sodom and Gomorrah are used as an example to show us what it means to suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;



The second death (the eternal punishment) is the only death that means utter destruction; annihilation.


**


Granted, more than just Christians receive eternal life. God's mercy is much greater than many think.

viewtopic.php?p=731804#p731804


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #129

Post by Tcg »

Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:11 am
According to the Bible, Jesus is the vine and we are grafted in, which makes a non-Christian person dead in my books until they are grafted into the tree of life and yet ... they walk around.
Perhaps, but in this sub-forum the Bible is not considered authoritative. What evidence outside of the Bible can you provide to support your claim that renders, "a non-Christian person dead?"


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