Is annihilation false doctrine?

[Wootah]

This is the philosophical perspective.

This all assumes a just legal system.

When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.

Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.

If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.

Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.

--

Just thinking about this.

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?

--

Is annihilation false doctrine?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Just thinking about this.

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

Well... the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23 (first half of that quote)

Not eternal torment. Not eternal existence in torment (be that mental or physical).

The wages of sin is death.

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?

Because the wages of sin is simply death.

The gift of God (through Christ) is eternal life. (Romans 6:23, the second half of that quote)

Just because a person received death (the wage of sin), does not mean that a person automatically receives something that is a gift (the gift of eternal life from God through His Son).


For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through [Jesus] Christ our Lord.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Purple Knight]

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

Not necessarily, no. We all know you can do horrid stuff you can never pay for, but we will punish you anyway either to get rid of you or to stop you doing it again, or perhaps to reinforce to others that there are consequences.

You can blow up a house that's more expensive than you could ever pay back. You can murder more than one person, when you have only one life to give in recompense for it. It's easy for people to rack up more debt than they could ever pay.

If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?

Just repayment or reparation or recompense is making someone whole, that is, making the person you wronged as good as they were had you not wronged them. Just punishment is whatever whosoever has the right to punish says it is. Paying back can act as a punishment, but not all just punishment involves paying anything back.

Now, nobody wronged God, not directly. Nobody hurt God. Nobody injured God. He's immortal. How are would you propose to do such a thing? Your sins just p him off. As far as the fact that you'll die knowing you hurt other people and you can never make up for it? Meh. Human condition.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam in post #2]

Hi Tam,

Yep - the wages of sin are death. That means that we die and we sure do. For me that means our existence ends in this physical reality. We will be with Jesus as spirits until the new version is created.

Also, clearly, we didn't get annihilated after Adam sinned so death can't defacto mean annihilation.

[JoeyKnothead]

This is the philosophical perspective.

This all assumes a just legal system.

When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison.

As many have done, they can end their sentence by killing themself, or escaping. Beyond that, many prisoners still owe their fines when they're released from prison.

If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

That's a mighty big if, and don't you remember your recent failed attempts to show Hell exists, or do ya want me to run fetch the link for ya?

Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.

Says who?

Considering none can show God exists, I propose it's a good bit presumptuous to try to pretend like we know his properties.

Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

There's simply no way to know if a god that can't be shown to exist had him any part in anybody's death.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.

The problem here is in trying to show a god that can't be shown to exist'd try to annihilate someone.

Put another way, at the point where God intends...

Your task now is to offer some means by which we may confirm God acts with intent.

...To annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence.

Assumes facts not in evidence - who can show God holds any opinion/s?

Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.
[/quotea]
Ya got called out and lost when ya claimed to be able to show Hell exists.

Care to take that same challenge, cept we swap out "Hell", and put in "Heaven"?

If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.

Where has it been shown God annihilates anything?

...Snip anecdote...

Just thinking about this.
After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?
If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?
Is annihilation false doctrine?

Considering not one person can show God has a mind to even contemplate the doings of humans, and considering none can show God acts in any way, shape or form, I propose this OP is best left to Theology Doctrine & Dogma, or Holy Huddle, where preaching is apparently considered some kinda valid form of debate. But I'm no moderator.

[JehovahsWitness]

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?

Biblically, going to heaven is not a right obtained by living a sinnless life (or paying for one's sins) its a gift /a pivilege.

Asking: why am I not in heaven yet? is like a woman demanding someone marry them because they've never had a parking ticket or have paid for all those they did get.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Is annihilation false doctrine?

ISAIAH 13:9 ISV

Watch out! The Day of the LORD is coming— cruel, with wrath and fierce anger— to turn the entire inhabited earth into a desolation and to annihilate sinners from it.

ANNIHILATION

1: the state or fact of being completely destroyed or obliterated : the act of annihilating something or the state of being annihilated

If it means God preserving the right to destroy or obliterate those he judges as unworthy of life, I do not think it is a false docrine as the bible speaks of Jehovah God (YHWH) doing just that.



https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Annihilate

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

DEATH , KILLING and ...ARMAGEDDON

[JehovahsWitness]

I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment.

Making someone suffer for no other reason than to satisfy a personal desire that they do so, is sadistic.

The God of the bible is loving and merciful and takes no pleasure in humam suffering. Dragging put the pain and suffering of the wicked does not rectify a wrong, (if someone burns your house down, setting them on fire does not build you a new house). And if there is no hope of repentence (as is the case for the incorrigibly wicked) inflicting pointless pain would satisfy only the most perverse of sensibilities.




JW


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 48#p843948

Would God not prefer the wicked long drawn out pain rather than quick annihilation? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1044755#p1044755


Is death the end for the wicked ?
viewtopic.php?p=909903#p909903

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

[Wootah]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #3]

Numbers 15:30
But the person who sins defiantly, whether a native or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD. That person shall be cut off from among his people.

1 Samuel 2:25
If a man sins against another man, God can intercede for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to their father, since the LORD intended to put them to death.

Seems we can sin against God according to the Bible.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #5]

Pretty sure I proved hell exists. Please quote my posts and rebut anything you desire.

Please assume God and the Bible for this thread (it seems required). I respect your position however I posted here so more people can participate in the topic.