This is the philosophical perspective.
This all assumes a just legal system.
When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.
If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.
Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.
If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.
Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.
--
Just thinking about this.
After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?
If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?
--
Is annihilation false doctrine?
Is annihilation false doctrine?
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Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #101Hold on there .... you seem to be getting a bit free and easy with your quoting there. I did not type the line in red.Wootah wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:19 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #77]
Myth-one thinks that the annihilated are gone forever and God can't even remember them.
However JW thinks:Because they're dead. They're nowhere, gone gone, bye bye, nonexistent, annihilated, even the memory of them are gone.
viewtopic.php?p=1047561#p1047561Forget as in be fail to retain information due to a lack if ability or capacity, no that is impossible for a God of infinite power. Biblically, He "forgets" our sins in that he determinds never again to call them to account and the very name of the wicked will be "forgotten" in that they will never again have any impact in his righteous kingdom, but Jehovah will and can never forget anything he wishes to be called to mind.
God cannot forget anything.
Your correction and apology will be accepted.
JW
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #102You may expect what you like, however in an exchange with one of Jehovahs Witnesses it might be an idea to ask if we believe that dying (and thus paying for ones sins) is all that is required to be given eternal life in heaven.Wootah wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:20 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #97]
If a person has paid for their sins then they are sinless. I would expect to see them in heaven.CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
Why? Do universalists believe only 144,000 people will go to heaven to make up a government that will rule over the rest of obedient mankind who will live on this our planet earth?
JW
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #103[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #102]
I think on a civil debating forum we all innately apologising for typing and copying errors. I certainly do!
Does it misrepresent your position? Do you agree with it?
I think on a civil debating forum we all innately apologising for typing and copying errors. I certainly do!
Does it misrepresent your position? Do you agree with it?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #104[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #103]
Type away if you have a response. Run away when required. Naturally no one has to respond on a debating forum and I know we all have limited time but you are 16000 posts in so I think you do.
Imagine a guy commits a crime on earth and gets 2 years in jail. After the two years of being duly punished for his crime we let him go right? That's the common-sense view of justice right?
Type away if you have a response. Run away when required. Naturally no one has to respond on a debating forum and I know we all have limited time but you are 16000 posts in so I think you do.
If your conclusion is something you stand by then why aren't those that have been duly punished allowed into heaven?CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
Imagine a guy commits a crime on earth and gets 2 years in jail. After the two years of being duly punished for his crime we let him go right? That's the common-sense view of justice right?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #105Wootah wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:26 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #103]
Type away if you have a response. Run away when required. Naturally no one has to respond on a debating forum and I know we all have limited time but you are 16000 posts in so I think you do.
If your conclusion is something you stand by then why aren't those that have been duly punished allowed into heaven?CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
Biblically people do not automatically go to heaven simply because they have died (and thus paid for the sins they committed during their lives). 144,000 people are selected to go to heaven as an undeserved priviledge, a free gift extended by God according to his will and purpose.
God has chosen 144,000 to go to heaven to rule with Christ after they die. All those that are raised to heaven must first die but not all those that die are raised to heaven.Think of it like a marriage proposal. Your question is like asking, if a woman has a white dress why won't you marry her? The answer is, having a white dress doesnt automatically mean I will marry you! I have chosen another woman to marry not you.
JW
FURTHER READING What is God's Kingdom?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... s-kingdom/
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #106The sentence of sin is death, and is a life on earth of being among the walking dead. The final judgment is at the last judgment, whereas anyone whose name is not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which seems like a final judgment. What JWs don't realize, is that sin is transgression of the Law, and have followed the chief breaker of the Law, the false prophet (Matthew 7:13-23) Paul.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:36 amI don't see that it does. If you do perhaps you can explain what exactly you see as problematic in my postand why.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:25 am
This kind of disregards Revelation 20:12-15, whereas the dead will rise from their graves to be judged for their deeds, and anyone not found in the book of life would be thrown into the lake of fire.
JW
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #107That's usually required when the party concerned is unable to make a reasoned response. Stock standard strategy applied liberally by ....... (better not say).
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #108So why the whole Jesus dying on the cross for our sins?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:48 pmBecause people do not automatically go to heaven simply because they have died (and thus paid for the sins they committed during their lives). 144,000 people are selected to go to heaven as an undeserved priviledge, a free gift extended by God according to his will and purpose.Wootah wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:26 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #103]
Type away if you have a response. Run away when required. Naturally no one has to respond on a debating forum and I know we all have limited time but you are 16000 posts in so I think you do.
If your conclusion is something you stand by then why aren't those that have been duly punished allowed into heaven?CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
Think of it like a marriage proposal. Your question is like asking, if a woman has a white dress why won't you marry her? The answer is, having a white dress doesnt automatically mean I will marry you! I have chosen another woman to marry not you.
God has chosen 144,000 to go to heaven to rule with Christ after they die. All those that are raised to heaven must first die but not all those that die are raised to heaven.
JW
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #109Made up stories often mix fact and fiction. In asking one to suspend their belief in reality, the idea is to give em a bit of fact, so they may better enjoy the story.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #110To learn more please go to other posts related
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8