Is annihilation false doctrine?

[Wootah]

This is the philosophical perspective.

This all assumes a just legal system.

When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.

Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.

If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.

Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.

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Just thinking about this.

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?

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Is annihilation false doctrine?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Tcg in post #20]

Off-topic for me and when threads derail it sure seems hellish to me.

[brunumb]

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus died to pay the wages of sin for all human beings. So why should they still die, presumably we are talking about permanently that is? If everlasting life is a gift then who qualifies to receive it and why was the Jesus dying scenario even necessary?

[brunumb]

ISAIAH 13:9 ISV

Watch out! The Day of the LORD is coming— cruel, with wrath and fierce anger— to turn the entire inhabited earth into a desolation and to annihilate sinners from it.

Now that's the Jehovah we have all come to know, but love is just a step too far. It's one thing to annihilate sinners, but why turn the entire earth into desolation? The people who invented this God and created this fiction really didn't think it through all that well.

[JoeyKnothead]

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

Let's play pretend everybody...

Let's pretend God exists...
Let's pretend God's holy...
Let's pretend God's righteous...
Let's pretend God's just...
Let's pretend God has rules for human behavior...
Let's pretend God thinks folks 'sin'...
Let's pretend there's a Hell...
Let's pretend God sends folks there...
Let's pretend for 'sinning'...
Let's pretend we can pay for our sins...
Let's pretend whatever the heck serve our time means.

For debate:

Ain't God wonderful!


The preacher preaches, and the liar lies.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #25]

Joey - you may not like it but the forum is Debating Christianity and Religion. God is basically assumed.

You are now trolling the thread. Your purpose is not to participate in the discussion. I don't go to Star Wars forums and talk about Star Trek but apparently, you do that here.

It is a basic courtesy to participate in threads or restaurants or Disney theme park rides that you like and not vandalise the ones you don't like.

Now given your understanding of Christianity, for you, within the fictional Bible story, do you think annihilation or hell makes more sense? Why not even use verses from the 66 books in the 66ology of books to back up your arguments.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #25]
Joey - you may not like it but the forum is Debating Christianity and Religion. God is basically assumed.

I point out just how many assumptions are required to entertain this whole "annihilation" deal.

You are now trolling the thread.

I've come to expect many a Christian considers challenges to their cherished beliefs to be 'trollish' behavior.

Your purpose is not to participate in the discussion.

Let me make this perfectly clear...

You do NOT have the right to define my purposes, regardless of how upset my posts make you.

I don't go to Star Wars forums and talk about Star Trek but apparently, you do that here.

I didn't mention Star Wars, or Star Trek, and find neither very interesting, cept maybe TNG when it's about Data. Hey, we both worship folks who can't be shown to be real!

It is a basic courtesy to participate in threads or restaurants or Disney theme park rides that you like and not vandalise the ones you don't like.

I don't doubt many a Christian considers challenging their beliefs to be akin to poking dear ol Mickey Mouse right in the eye.

Do you think God's gonna get all annihilatey on Mickey? Think God'll send Mickey to Hell?

Now given your understanding of Christianity, for you, within the fictional Bible story, do you think annihilation or hell makes more sense?

I think it's a bunch of goofy stories, none of which can be shown to be truth.

Remember, the bible is not considered authoritative in this section of the site, so I'm not bound in any way to use it to support my arguments.

Why not even use verses from the 66 books in the 66ology of books to back up your arguments.

Remember, the bible is not considered authoritative in this section of the site, so I'm not bound in any way to use it to support my arguments, and...

I'm not a preacher.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #18]

Hi William,

Greetings Wootah.

There are loads of assumptions. Happy for people to show them false.

My position is that Hells and Heavens [and many other places outside of those two specific types] exist as creations to be experienced by those who create them [either knowingly or ignorantly as the case may be.]

It is not just for God to annihilate and then recreate a being so it is free from its wrongdoing.

My position is that The Creator can annihilate data of experience. The being in whos data is erased is Eternal and while it can be set to experience other things which will generate new and different data of experience, it can also be reconstituted into The Creator and be erased in that sense. [Be made to not be an individuate Eternal Spirit]

Humans now are under the law and will be judged, and as per the parable of the unforgiving servant, we will either accept God's forgiveness or we will be put in jail until we pay our debt against an infinite God.

In relation to the doctrine of eternal hell and damnation there is no "until we pay our debt against an infinite God".
You are a believer in that doctrine are you not?

Your view is annihilation means that a person has paid the price for their sins.

Annihilation is an extreme concept. The Creator would simply have to have no further use for such information in order to delete it. The data of experience = information and information = Personality. The personality is deleted [annihilated] so that is the result of useless information.

So why doesn't God let them go to heaven?

Let 'who' go to where?

God is omnipotent and can still re-create them. What is not just according to Christianity is for a person that is sinless to be denied heaven.

Useful information is saved and placed somewhere. In that, the information [personality through data of experience] is ongoing as it is added to through the process of continued experience [which produces the data].

I think we start to reveal the reason behind annihilation. It's just another attempt to backdoor our way into heaven.

Perhaps consider a re-think then.

[Tcg]

[Replying to William in post #18]

Hi William,

There are loads of assumptions. Happy for people to show them false.

It is your duty to show that those loads of assumptions are true. You are after all the one making the claim that they are. Verifiable evidence would do the trick. What can you present that qualifies?


Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #20]

Off-topic for me and when threads derail it sure seems hellish to me.

I addressed the topic you brought up. If it is indeed off-topic, it's not my fault. Are you now suggesting that your derailment of threads will somehow pay the price for sins? You seem to be claiming that is what hell is for. Of course you've not provided any verifiable evidence that this is the case.


Tcg

[Wootah]

[Replying to William in post #28]

My position is that Hells and Heavens [and many other places outside of those two specific types] exist as creations to be experienced by those who create them [either knowingly or ignorantly as the case may be.]

I read your other thread with your three positions. I think you think we create our own heaven when we die or something like that? My view is the standard normative Christian view that God creates heaven and hell.

In relation to the doctrine of eternal hell and damnation there is no "until we pay our debt against an infinite God".

Yes - what I am arguing is that we cannot pay our debt to an infinite being and that is why hell is eternal. But technically if the debt was possible to be paid then I would expect the prison to be set free and then come to heaven.

Perhaps consider a re-think then.

The purpose of the thread is to allow other ideas to change my view.

Let me try to change your view: Can a person who is evil in your view, create heaven better than the heaven that is created by a person that is good? Especially a hedonist - surely they know how to create a good heaven for themselves? And if people create their heavens and hells then doesn't that imply that they get what they want. Where is the justice?