Is annihilation false doctrine?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

This is the philosophical perspective.

This all assumes a just legal system.

When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.

Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.

If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.

Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.

--

Just thinking about this.

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?

--

Is annihilation false doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #91

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:24 pm
Wootah wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:16 am You know, a lot of atheist talk is like a lifelong prisoner no longer believing there is anything outside the prison cell.
It's always fascinating to read theists who presume to speak for atheists. Not sure if this boils down to Ad Hominem, a Straw Man, Poisoning the Well or some other logical fallacy. In any case the source is not from atheists.
TCG
And how we're equated to prisoners. (Outlaws, refuse to obey Christian 'authority', Group W bench sitters, all such as that)

When fact ain't your friend, ya grab ya the first straw to come along.

I've been locked up for various misdeeds and malcontentions, most of em my fault, well truth be told they all was, and I'm here to tell it, folks'll find religion inside the cage often as folks'll find em a beer in a bar.

Who's the prisoner then?

"Atheists talk like prisoners, they think like prisoners, and if there's him a God up in Heaven, aprisoned they'll be!"

It's just nice to know when ya've met him, the guy with the most expensive trailer in the park.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #92

Post by brunumb »

Wootah wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:16 am You know, a lot of atheist talk is like a lifelong prisoner no longer believing there is anything outside the prison cell. Religion or not I just don't think it is justifiable. I do think it is a worldview and when I point it out atheists tend to get very offended (as if I attacked a sacred belief).
:? I honestly don't know what that means. Could you please elaborate on it for me.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #93

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:42 am
Wootah wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:16 am You know, a lot of atheist talk is like a lifelong prisoner no longer believing there is anything outside the prison cell. Religion or not I just don't think it is justifiable. I do think it is a worldview and when I point it out atheists tend to get very offended (as if I attacked a sacred belief).
:? I honestly don't know what that means. Could you please elaborate on it for me.
ImageImage

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #94

Post by Wootah »

New thread to not derail this one with the power of my awesome quote.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38546
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #95

Post by Wootah »

Wootah wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:59 pm This is the philosophical perspective.

This all assumes a just legal system.

When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.

If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.

Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.

Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.

If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.

Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.

--

Just thinking about this.

After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?

If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?

--

Is annihilation false doctrine?
Anyone want to debate this one on one?

Anyone want to summarise how this argument is false for me?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #96

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:05 am
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
FALSE PREMISE #1 : "....we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God "

BIBLE : "The soul who sins is the one who will die.. For his unfaithfulness and the sin he has committed, he will die." (Ezekiel 18:20, 24 compare Romans 6:23 , Genesis 2:17).

CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.

FALSE PREMISE #2 : "....God killed the person after the sentence was over."


Death* IS "the sentence". The idea that conscious continued existence after the physical body dies (the teaching of the immortality of a soul) is a pagan unbiblical teaching; one that forms the basis of the "strawman" argument that a person is somhow "incarcerated" after dying in some kind of "perrgatory" only to subsequeently be anniliated.

DEATH: Biblically death is the oppoiste of life; complete and utter nonexistence. The person returns to the exact same condition he was in before he was created.

For more on this please see the link WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD? Here
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p918715





JEHOVAHS WITNESS

To read more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...RESURRECTION
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

2ndpillar2
Sage
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:47 am
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #97

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:14 am
Wootah wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:05 am
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.

Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
FALSE PREMISE #1 : "....we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God "

BIBLE : "The soul who sins is the one who will die.. For his unfaithfulness and the sin he has committed, he will die." (Ezekiel 18:20, 24 compare Romans 6:23 , Genesis 2:17).

CONCLUSION: Once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.

FALSE PREMISE #2 : "....God killed the person after the sentence was over."


Death* IS "the sentence". The idea that conscious continued existence after death (the immortality of a soul) is a pagan unbiblical teaching; one that forms the basis of the "strawman" argument thata person is somhow "incarcerated" after dying in some kind of "perrgatory" only to subsequeently be anniliated.

DEATH: Biblically death is the oppoiste of life. Complete and utter nonexistence. The person returns to the exact same condition he was in before he was created.
JEHOVAHS WITNESS
This kind of disregards Revelation 20:12-15, whereas the dead will rise from their graves to be judged for their deeds, and anyone not found in the book of life would be thrown into the lake of fire. I don't know, but being thrown into a lake of fire kind of sounds non appealing.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #98

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:25 am
This kind of disregards Revelation 20:12-15, whereas the dead will rise from their graves to be judged for their deeds, and anyone not found in the book of life would be thrown into the lake of fire.
I don't see that it does. If you do perhaps you can explain what exactly you see as problematic in my postand why.



JW







RELATED POSTS


In what sense do some "come to life" after the 1000 years?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 04#p872404

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #99

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #77]

Myth-one thinks that the annihilated are gone forever and God can't even remember them.
Because they're dead. They're nowhere, gone gone, bye bye, nonexistent, annihilated, even the memory of them are gone.
However JW thinks:
viewtopic.php?p=1047561#p1047561
Forget as in be fail to retain information due to a lack if ability or capacity, no that is impossible for a God of infinite power. Biblically, He "forgets" our sins in that he determinds never again to call them to account and the very name of the wicked will be "forgotten" in that they will never again have any impact in his righteous kingdom, but Jehovah will and can never forget anything he wishes to be called to mind.

God cannot forget anything.
Personally, I think if God does annihilate but you are in the memory banks of God then you are not annihilated at all and if that equates to annihilation then the punishment has been served and the criminal is has now paid for their sins and a just God would therefore bring them back to existence. But let's get all the views on the table and see why they conflict.

Tam, what is your view on what annihilation by God means please?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

User avatar
Wootah
Savant
Posts: 9161
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?

Post #100

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #97]
CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
If a person has paid for their sins then they are sinless. I would expect to see them in heaven.

So are JW universalists?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Post Reply