This is the philosophical perspective.
This all assumes a just legal system.
When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.
If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.
Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.
If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.
Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.
--
Just thinking about this.
After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?
If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?
--
Is annihilation false doctrine?
Is annihilation false doctrine?
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Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #91And how we're equated to prisoners. (Outlaws, refuse to obey Christian 'authority', Group W bench sitters, all such as that)
When fact ain't your friend, ya grab ya the first straw to come along.
I've been locked up for various misdeeds and malcontentions, most of em my fault, well truth be told they all was, and I'm here to tell it, folks'll find religion inside the cage often as folks'll find em a beer in a bar.
Who's the prisoner then?
"Atheists talk like prisoners, they think like prisoners, and if there's him a God up in Heaven, aprisoned they'll be!"
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #92I honestly don't know what that means. Could you please elaborate on it for me.Wootah wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:16 am You know, a lot of atheist talk is like a lifelong prisoner no longer believing there is anything outside the prison cell. Religion or not I just don't think it is justifiable. I do think it is a worldview and when I point it out atheists tend to get very offended (as if I attacked a sacred belief).
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #93brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:42 amI honestly don't know what that means. Could you please elaborate on it for me.Wootah wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:16 am You know, a lot of atheist talk is like a lifelong prisoner no longer believing there is anything outside the prison cell. Religion or not I just don't think it is justifiable. I do think it is a worldview and when I point it out atheists tend to get very offended (as if I attacked a sacred belief).
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #94Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #95Anyone want to debate this one on one?Wootah wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:59 pm This is the philosophical perspective.
This all assumes a just legal system.
When someone is sentenced to go to prison they will only be able to end that prison sentence by paying the measured fine or serving the measured amount of time in prison. If that person has served their prison sentence and then you kill them you are acting unjustly.
If God is holy, righteous and just and we have sinned against God then hell is the prison we go to unless we pay for our sins against God or until we serve our time.
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.
Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
Put another way, at the point where God intends to annihilate a being it means that God regards that they have served their sentence. Therefore the being should be allowed into heaven. They have paid for their sins against God.
If they have not served their sentence and God annihilates them fails because as I just said, at the point of annihilation it means they have served their sentence.
Anecdote: I am pro-death penalty but the biggest argument against the death penalty for me is that prison lets the criminal rot for longer. Something about the execution is unjust, it is too light a punishment. I would still reply back that the cost to the state for keeping the criminal alive takes resources away from others and in a fallen world the prisoner could escape.
--
Just thinking about this.
After annihilation has the person paid for their sins?
If yes, then why aren't they in heaven?
If no, then they have escaped punishment or, worse, is God unable to justly punish?
--
Is annihilation false doctrine?
Anyone want to summarise how this argument is false for me?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #96FALSE PREMISE #1 : "....we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God "Wootah wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:05 am
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.
Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
BIBLE : "The soul who sins is the one who will die.. For his unfaithfulness and the sin he has committed, he will die." (Ezekiel 18:20, 24 compare Romans 6:23 , Genesis 2:17).
CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
FALSE PREMISE #2 : "....God killed the person after the sentence was over."
Death* IS "the sentence". The idea that conscious continued existence after the physical body dies (the teaching of the immortality of a soul) is a pagan unbiblical teaching; one that forms the basis of the "strawman" argument that a person is somhow "incarcerated" after dying in some kind of "perrgatory" only to subsequeently be anniliated.
DEATH: Biblically death is the oppoiste of life; complete and utter nonexistence. The person returns to the exact same condition he was in before he was created.
For more on this please see the link WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD? Here
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p918715
JEHOVAHS WITNESS
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BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...RESURRECTION
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #97This kind of disregards Revelation 20:12-15, whereas the dead will rise from their graves to be judged for their deeds, and anyone not found in the book of life would be thrown into the lake of fire. I don't know, but being thrown into a lake of fire kind of sounds non appealing.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:14 amFALSE PREMISE #1 : "....we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God "Wootah wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:05 am
Problem a - is that we can never justly pay for our sins against an infinite God and so can never leave the prison.
Problem b - is that annihilation means that the sentence is over and God killed the person after the sentence was over.
Therefore Annihilation makes God unjust.
BIBLE : "The soul who sins is the one who will die.. For his unfaithfulness and the sin he has committed, he will die." (Ezekiel 18:20, 24 compare Romans 6:23 , Genesis 2:17).
CONCLUSION: Once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
FALSE PREMISE #2 : "....God killed the person after the sentence was over."
Death* IS "the sentence". The idea that conscious continued existence after death (the immortality of a soul) is a pagan unbiblical teaching; one that forms the basis of the "strawman" argument thata person is somhow "incarcerated" after dying in some kind of "perrgatory" only to subsequeently be anniliated.
JEHOVAHS WITNESSDEATH: Biblically death is the oppoiste of life. Complete and utter nonexistence. The person returns to the exact same condition he was in before he was created.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #98I don't see that it does. If you do perhaps you can explain what exactly you see as problematic in my postand why.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:25 am
This kind of disregards Revelation 20:12-15, whereas the dead will rise from their graves to be judged for their deeds, and anyone not found in the book of life would be thrown into the lake of fire.
JW
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In what sense do some "come to life" after the 1000 years?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 04#p872404
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FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #99[Replying to myth-one.com in post #77]
Myth-one thinks that the annihilated are gone forever and God can't even remember them.
viewtopic.php?p=1047561#p1047561
Tam, what is your view on what annihilation by God means please?
Myth-one thinks that the annihilated are gone forever and God can't even remember them.
However JW thinks:Because they're dead. They're nowhere, gone gone, bye bye, nonexistent, annihilated, even the memory of them are gone.
viewtopic.php?p=1047561#p1047561
Personally, I think if God does annihilate but you are in the memory banks of God then you are not annihilated at all and if that equates to annihilation then the punishment has been served and the criminal is has now paid for their sins and a just God would therefore bring them back to existence. But let's get all the views on the table and see why they conflict.Forget as in be fail to retain information due to a lack if ability or capacity, no that is impossible for a God of infinite power. Biblically, He "forgets" our sins in that he determinds never again to call them to account and the very name of the wicked will be "forgotten" in that they will never again have any impact in his righteous kingdom, but Jehovah will and can never forget anything he wishes to be called to mind.
God cannot forget anything.
Tam, what is your view on what annihilation by God means please?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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Re: Is annihilation false doctrine?
Post #100[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #97]
So are JW universalists?
If a person has paid for their sins then they are sinless. I would expect to see them in heaven.CONCLUSION: Biblically, once a person dies, God considers he has been duly punished "for his sin". No further punishment can or will be extracted.
So are JW universalists?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
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