Hell is love

[Wootah]

The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.

His willingness to love his children by keeping them separate from the Devil's children demonstrates that love.

The eternity of hell is explained to my mind by the fact God is a God of life. We were created to live forever. Many other religions believe their God has the right to destroy even his children. But what security is there in that?

We all practise hell all the time. Aren't there people that you don't like or don't want to associate with? Don't we all cast people out of our lives?

Would you ever let a paedophile near your child? If yes then you don't love your child. If no then you are loving and you practise hell.

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

Rebuttals?

[brunumb]

There can be no resurrection after annihilation. Annihilation is utter destruction (body and 'soul'). There is nothing left of the person to resurrect. Hence, the second death is eternal.

That sounds perfectly correct, except that there is only one death and that's it.

[JoeyKnothead]

It happens that it was, there was a late edit, cause best I can tell, I can't tell me the difference twixt an opening tag, and one that'll close it, nor a hole in the ground...



Hell is love?

Okay, we have a definiton, if that's all we have.

However, in this thread our OPer defines it as angusish, and loss, and all such as that.

What gives?

I can't escape thinking we're getting ad hoc definitions in place of verifiable, confirmable fact.

Now Hell's an example of "God's love", but that's just an empty assertion if it can't be shown to be true.

Notice the assumptions plaguing this empty claim, and this intellectually and factually empty OP...

1. God exists
2. Hell exists
3. Hell is an example of God's love
4. God feels emotions
5. One of em's love

That's just the assumptions from the title of the OP alone, now let's get into the rest of the OP, and look at the remaining assumptions...

The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.

6.God has a willingness
7. Among that willingness is God's love

His willingness to love his children by keeping them separate from the Devil's children demonstrates that love.

8. God has children
9. God keeps his children separate
10. From Satan
11. Satan exists
12. Satan has children

The eternity of hell is explained to my mind by the fact God is a God of life.

13. There's an eternity of Hell
14. The "fact" that God is anything (other'n a concept)
15. God is a god of life.

We were created to live forever.

16. God can create
17. God created humans
18. To live forever

...
We all practise hell all the time.

19. We all practice Hell.

Aren't there people that you don't like or don't want to associate with? Don't we all cast people out of our lives?

20. People we don't like are Hell
21. People we don't want to associate with are Hell
22. People we cast out of our lives are Hell.

Would you ever let a paedophile near your child?

23. Paedophhiles are Hell
23. Paedophhiles being around children is / are Hell

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

24. Anyone who dares challenge this claimant to show he speaks truth is no different than a criminal.

(Let that'n sink in for a spell.)

25ish. Who should be sent to prison?

This is is what we're up against as debaters, and as a society.

Folks who think that merely questioning their unproven, unprovable claims makes you no different than a criminal.

When folks ask me why I debate here, this is among the reasons.

We get us a preacher who is incapable of showing his claims are truth, then declaring that the act of asking that preacher to show they speak truth, or the act of denying belief in their unproven, unprovable claims wants to say we're no different than a criminal.


Alas, when their sacred texts declare unbelievers incapable of doing good, we should expect the biblical adherent to treat us like criminal s.

[Purple Knight]

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

At first sight this scans. I admit it. I didn't give it a second thought at first, beyond the idea that we really should love the criminal and the paedophile regardless of the risk to us or our children.

But then Knotty quoted it and I thought of something else.

Why do we need prison? Well, because we can actually hurt each other, not because we're cliquey, social climber high school girls who can't stand the sight of each other for the simple reason that each thinks the other hurts her social status somehow.

Can we... actually hurt each other... in Heaven? Really? If not then I don't desire to be away from someone who would kill me or cut of my legs because he can't do it. I was sitting there arguing that we should absolutely love those who cut off our legs and just let them do it out of love. I straight up didn't notice that this was not the level I should have been arguing on, though I do still believe based on what I've read that God requires this sort of love.

[JoeyKnothead]

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

At first sight this scans. I admit it. I didn't give it a second thought at first, beyond the idea that we really should love the criminal and the paedophile regardless of the risk to us or our children.

But then Knotty quoted it and I thought of something else.

Why do we need prison? Well, because we can actually hurt each other, not because we're cliquey, social climber high school girls who can't stand the sight of each other for the simple reason that each thinks the other hurts her social status somehow.

Can we... actually hurt each other... in Heaven? Really? If not then I don't desire to be away from someone who would kill me or cut of my legs because he can't do it. I was sitting there arguing that we should absolutely love those who cut off our legs and just let them do it out of love. I straight up didn't notice that this was not the level I should have been arguing on, though I do still believe based on what I've read that God requires this sort of love.

That depends on what leg it is, that's abeing it cut off

We, humans, should hold us no truck with any "all knowing" god who'd punish us humans for anything, considering he didn't pass him along that whole "all knowing gene".

Naw, we humans should police ourselves, and God should find him some other Joseph to cuckold.

[Wootah]

Peace to you Wootah,

[Replying to tam in post #49]

Hi Tam - please remind me. After we die. Do we exist in some form (can think, reason) according to you or do you think you are 'annihilated' until the resurrection?

We still exist after we die (the first death). We are 'asleep', conscious of nothing (either in sheol/hades/the world of the dead - or- if one is in Christ, then 'under the altar')

**

There can be no resurrection after annihilation. Annihilation is utter destruction (body and 'soul'). There is nothing left of the person to resurrect. Hence, the second death is eternal.



Hope that helps clear some things up in our exchange.

Peace again.

Hi Tam,

So what technically in your mind is the difference between 'asleep', conscious of nothing and annihilation/utter destruction? Seems like good and bad are annihilated at that point.
Can God resurrect an annihilated being?

[Wootah]

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

At first sight this scans. I admit it. I didn't give it a second thought at first, beyond the idea that we really should love the criminal and the paedophile regardless of the risk to us or our children.

Hi Purple Knight,

We should love the criminal and the paedophile. The most loving thing for a criminal is to catch them.

But our love for others comes from the forgiveness God gave to us. See the parable of the unforgiving servant. As a forgiven servant I should show forgiveness and mercy to others. This has nothing to do with not following through on justice.

But then Knotty quoted it and I thought of something else.

Why do we need prison? Well, because we can actually hurt each other, not because we're cliquey, social climber high school girls who can't stand the sight of each other for the simple reason that each thinks the other hurts her social status somehow.

Can we... actually hurt each other... in Heaven? Really? If not then I don't desire to be away from someone who would kill me or cut of my legs because he can't do it. I was sitting there arguing that we should absolutely love those who cut off our legs and just let them do it out of love. I straight up didn't notice that this was not the level I should have been arguing on, though I do still believe based on what I've read that God requires this sort of love.

I didn't quite understand this so I can't comment.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you Wootah,

[Replying to tam in post #49]

Hi Tam - please remind me. After we die. Do we exist in some form (can think, reason) according to you or do you think you are 'annihilated' until the resurrection?

We still exist after we die (the first death). We are 'asleep', conscious of nothing (either in sheol/hades/the world of the dead - or- if one is in Christ, then 'under the altar')

**

There can be no resurrection after annihilation. Annihilation is utter destruction (body and 'soul'). There is nothing left of the person to resurrect. Hence, the second death is eternal.



Hope that helps clear some things up in our exchange.

Peace again.

Hi Tam,

So what technically in your mind is the difference between 'asleep', conscious of nothing and annihilation/utter destruction? Seems like good and bad are annihilated at that point.
Can God resurrect an annihilated being?

The difference?

A sleeping person exists (as spirit, what many call 'soul'), but is conscious of nothing. For those who have died, the spirit of that person exists but is 'asleep', conscious of nothing. Christ said that the time was coming that those in their graves will hear His voice and come out; and in explaining things to Daniel, that the dead are sleeping in the dust of the earth but will at some point wake from their sleep. Daniel 12:2; John 5:28

On the other hand, an annihilated person has been destroyed completely, body and 'soul', that person no longer exists, period.

**

As stated above, no, there is nothing left to resurrect of an annihilated person. No spirit (what most call 'soul'), no body, nothing. That person has been destroyed, both body and 'soul'. (Matt 10:28)


Peace again.

[Wootah]

[Replying to tam in post #58]

I'm pretty sure a sleeping person exists. The idea that people are sleeping in death is definitely a Christian one. It means exactly opposite of what you think it means. As this thread shows, atheists think the dead are truly dead at death, Christians believe they are not truly dead and we say they are merely 'sleeping' because we know death is not the end. It's a metaphor for Christians. And you are trying to argue that they are dead with the atheists.

I'm pretty sure God is omnipotent and can create a human out of nothing.

Matthew 3:9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

If God could make rocks into children for Abraham then he could make someone from nothing. The whole of creation is basically something from nothing.

[Purple Knight]

We should love the criminal and the paedophile. The most loving thing for a criminal is to catch them.

But our love for others comes from the forgiveness God gave to us. See the parable of the unforgiving servant. As a forgiven servant I should show forgiveness and mercy to others. This has nothing to do with not following through on justice.

I had a whole discussion on this with JW. While he did make a good point that there was snitching in the story by a good character (the other servants) so it probably doesn't mean no snitching, forgiveness means no justice. If I forgive someone, I don't demand payment or punishment or anything.

I didn't quite understand this so I can't comment.

I'm just saying that the whole prison analogy doesn't really work. We need people to be in prison because they can hurt us, not because we want to be away from them. I want to be away from a murderer because he might murder me. If we're talking about Heaven I no longer care because he can no longer murder me, so I no longer desire the separation.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #58]

I'm pretty sure a sleeping person exists.

Yes, as I also said.

The idea that people are sleeping in death is definitely a Christian one.

Yes, as Christ said (and I mentioned in my previous post).

It means exactly opposite of what you think it means.

See now, this statement doesn't make any sense, Wootah. In the same way that many of your responses to my posts have not made sense. How could death mean the opposite of what I said when I said the same thing that you posted, and that Christ Himself said. In fact, I am just going with what Christ said.

You need to define WHICH death you are referring to, because as it is, you seem to be slipping between the different kinds of deaths so that nothing concrete can be nailed down.

As this thread shows, atheists think the dead are truly dead at death,

Yes...

Christians believe they are not truly dead and we say they are merely 'sleeping' because we know death is not the end.

Yes, this is true of the FIRST death.

Do you understand that there is more than one death spoken of in what is written?

The FIRST death is likened to a sleep, because a) the dead are conscious of nothing, and b) there is a resurrection of the dead that is to come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and awaken and come out of their graves (John 5:28, 29, and of course in Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are resurrected.)

It's a metaphor for Christians. And you are trying to argue that they are dead with the atheists.

You need to re-read my posts OR define which death you are referring to.

The FIRST death is a 'sleep', and the dead will be awakened and resurrected from that death. But the SECOND death is eternal. No matter how you choose to define death, you must acknowledge that the second death is eternal yes? Not temporary. Eternal. There is no resurrection from the second death.

After the thousand years:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.


The second death is also mentioned at the start of Rev 20 (4-6):

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I'm pretty sure God is omnipotent and can create a human out of nothing.

Out of the dust of the earth at the very least, but that is not a resurrection. That is a creation. A new person.

Matthew 3:9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

If God could make rocks into children for Abraham then he could make someone from nothing. The whole of creation is basically something from nothing.

There is no resurrection mentioned here, Wootah.

**

In any case, you need to define which death you are referring to. Because there are three mentioned.

1 - the 'dying you will die' that occurred with adam and eve when they were yet alive on the earth. Death had entered into them, but they were not in 'hell' (the world of the dead); they were yet alive on the earth.

2 - the first death. When a person physically dies and is buried (their spirit descending to Hades, the world of the dead, which is being called 'hell'). This death is likened to a sleep; this death is temporary; there is a resurrection to come of these dead.

3 - the second death. This death is ETERNAL. There is no resurrection from it; it is not likened to a 'sleep'. The second death comes after the resurrection of the dead (the people who died the first death), at the end of the thousand years. No one is in 'hell' (the world of the dead) anymore, because 'hell' gives up the dead in it (see above scriptures), and then 'hell' itself is cast into the lake of fire.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy