Hell is love

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Wootah
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Hell is love

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.

His willingness to love his children by keeping them separate from the Devil's children demonstrates that love.

The eternity of hell is explained to my mind by the fact God is a God of life. We were created to live forever. Many other religions believe their God has the right to destroy even his children. But what security is there in that?

We all practise hell all the time. Aren't there people that you don't like or don't want to associate with? Don't we all cast people out of our lives?

Would you ever let a paedophile near your child? If yes then you don't love your child. If no then you are loving and you practise hell.

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.

Rebuttals?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Hell is love

Post #2

Post by Bust Nak »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:59 am Rebuttals?
a) "God's children" and "the Devil's children" have both done the crimes and equally deserving of prison. It's not a question of letting a paedophile near your child, but letting a paedophile near other paedophiles. It may demonstrate love for one set of children, but does God not love all his creations?

b) You raised a question of security. As far as your prison analogy goes, destroying a convicted paedophile is more secure than just keeping one in prison. Assuming the chance of escaping from hell is zero, annihilation is as secure as eternity of hell.

c) At best your thesis only covers the idea of separating the sinners from the forgiven. It leaves the question of God separating himself from the sinners unanswered. While there are people that I don't like nor associate with, I wouldn't do that to my own children, because I love them.

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Re: Hell is love

Post #3

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #2]

a) Christianity is salvation by grace. I agree.

b) It takes annihilation 'off the table'. Annihilation remains unjust. No punishment has been served.

c)Familial love is one of the worst kinds. Mobsters mums still love them. Just because you wouldn't, doesn't mean you shouldn't - it is a matter of moral courage really.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Hell is love

Post #4

Post by Bust Nak »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:28 am a) Christianity is salvation by grace. I agree.
Right, so then is hell not a demonstration of love for one group as it is a demonstration of the opposite of (or perhaps a mere lack of) love against another?
b) It takes annihilation 'off the table'. Annihilation remains unjust. No punishment has been served.
Lets leave this question of justice for the other thread, this thread is about hell as a demonstration of love much like protecting children from paedophiles. Do you accept that annihilation serves the purpose of protecting the forgiven at least as effectively as eternal hell?
c)Familial love is one of the worst kinds. Mobsters mums still love them. Just because you wouldn't, doesn't mean you shouldn't - it is a matter of moral courage really.
I don't quite understand what you are saying here, you are suggesting that mobsters mums ought not love their mobster child? And that a morally brave mobster mum would not love their mobster child?

If so then how does that gel with the idea that God loves sinners?

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Re: Hell is love

Post #5

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Bust Nak in post #4]
Right, so then is hell not a demonstration of love as it is a demonstration of the opposite of (or perhaps a mere lack of) love?
We resolved this. God loves his children. You said you love yours. It is loving to separate your children from paedophiles.
Lets leave this question of justice for the other thread, this thread is about hell as a demonstration of love much like protecting children from paedophile. Do you accept that annihilation serves the purpose of protecting the forgiven at least as effectively as eternal hell?
I can accept that.
I don't quite understand what you are saying here, you are suggesting that mobsters mums ought not love their mobster child? And that a morally brave mobster mum would not love their mobster child?
Familial love is often a very big blind eye to the true nature of our children.
If so then how does that gel with the idea that God loves sinner?
He gave us his son, etc.
Romans 5
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
God would be perfectly loving and justified to have stayed in heaven and let all of us go to hell.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Hell is love

Post #6

Post by Bust Nak »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:39 am We resolved this. God loves his children. You said you love yours. It is loving to separate your children from paedophiles.
I can grant you that it is indeed loving separate one's children from paedophiles, that much is resolved. However, my point was God only love some of his children, the others he disowned. He is not separating his children from paedophiles, he is separating one group of paedophiles from other paedophiles. You seemed to have agreed with my point when you mentioned grace, was this part also resolved?
I can accept that.
Follow up question, again, leaving aside the question of justice aside for the other thread, could annihilation also be indication that God is loving?
Familial love is often a very big blind eye to the true nature of our children.
Okay, often yet not always, many a loving mother have turned their own children in for crimes they've committed. The criminal is separated from the general population, yet the loving parent still keeps in touch. God isn't doing this, which goes to show that hell is also a demonstration of un-love/lack of love.
He gave us his son, etc.
Looks to me like a perfect example of God's familial love leading him to turn a blind eye to the true nature of us sinners.
God would be perfectly loving and justified to have stayed in heaven and let all of us go to hell.
If God would be perfectly loving and justified to let all of us go to hell, and God is perfectly loving and justified to let some of us go to hell, then would God not also be perfectly loving and justified to let none of us go to hell?

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Re: Hell is love

Post #7

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Hell is letting the preachers take over the site.

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Re: Hell is love

Post #8

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:59 am The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.
Sure, why not.

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Re: Hell is love

Post #9

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.

His willingness to love his children by keeping them separate from the Devil's children demonstrates that love.

God wouldn't need to do this if he didn't allow 'the Devil' into the picture to begin with, so no, that's not love. That's game playing with the eternal lives of those he is said to have created and love (conditionally).
The eternity of hell is explained to my mind by the fact God is a God of life.
We each, often times, create our own reality to make life easier.
Many other religions believe their God has the right to destroy even his children. But what security is there in that?
Who said there needs to be security at all? Christianity isn't about security, it's about selfishness (I'm going to Heaven, God love me, etc), and the apparent need for God to be worshipped, not security.
Aren't there people that you don't like or don't want to associate with? Don't we all cast people out of our lives?
Probably, but we are all knowing or all powerful, so comparing any imperfect human to a perfect 'being' is intellectually dishonest IMO.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Hell is love

Post #10

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:59 am The existence of hell is one of the best indications that God is loving.

His willingness to love his children by keeping them separate from the Devil's children demonstrates that love.
1 - As stated on previous threads, "hell" (the word translated from sheol/hades) is simply the world of the dead, where the dead (all who have died except for those in Christ) await the resurrection of the dead (and subsequent Judgment). At that time 'hell' (Hades/Sheol) is EMPTIED OUT of the dead in it, great and small. Such ones then receive the resurrection of LIFE or the resurrection of judgment and the second death. Rev 20:11-15; John 5:28, 29

viewtopic.php?p=1045039#p1045039

2 - God can (and does) protect His children without eternal torment for those enemies who would harm His children.

The eternity of hell is explained to my mind by the fact God is a God of life. We were created to live forever. Many other religions believe their God has the right to destroy even his children. But what security is there in that?
A - God does not destroy His children, but as you have pointed out, not all are His children.

B - God set before us the choice between life and death. Not life in eternal happiness or life in eternal torment. Life or death.

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." Deut. 30:19

And who says man was created with the automatic gift of eternal life? Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden so that they could not eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. So while they might have been created to live forever (and may yet be granted that gift, and once again have access to that Tree of Life), their own actions led to their death (and the death of their offspring).

We all practise hell all the time. Aren't there people that you don't like or don't want to associate with? Don't we all cast people out of our lives?
On another thread you wondered how some of us (who do not accept the trinity) could keep from being fooled by the 'antichrist' (whatever/whomever you think that is). Though you did not demonstrate how we would be fooled unless we believe in the trinity (or that "Jesus" is God), here it is you who are pushing for an invented meaning of the word, 'hell'. Hell - derived from sheol/hades is a real place, has a real meaning. The world of the dead. The place Job longed to go to ESCAPE his suffering.

It was never understood to be a place of eternal torment - not until some men came along, misinterpreted/mistranslated some of the words of Christ (you know the whole 'woe to you scribes and teachers of the law', that He said), perhaps added in some other religious concept (greek ones perhaps), ignored reason and love, and just plain old common sense. The doctrine of eternal torment in hell is not even biblical, not the least of which because 'hell' is emptied out of the dead in it - some resurrected to life, and some resurrected to judgment and the second death.

Nor can the lake of fire BE hell (the world of the dead), because hell (the world of the dead) is spoken of as being something separate from the lake of fire, since 'hell' (hades/sheold) is thrown into the lake of fire. Hell is not thrown into itself. That also makes no sense.


On the other thread you claimed that my desire for annihilation (rather than the 'traditional doctrine of hell'... you do recall what Christ said about traditions of men, do you not? Mark 7:13) demonstrated my desire for a backdoor into heaven. That made ZERO sense. Annihilation is the end of the person. There is no chance of a door (much less a backdoor) into heaven for that person. This is not logical. This is not even reasonable.

Would you ever let a paedophile near your child? If yes then you don't love your child. If no then you are loving and you practise hell.
Hell - the world of the dead (sheol/hades) is a place, not a practice.

A Christian or any person arguing against hell is no different to a criminal arguing against prison.
No one is (or at least I am not) arguing against 'hell' (the world of the dead); only against the erroneous doctrine and understanding of what 'hell' is.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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