If some of the bible stories were true...

[nobspeople]

If some of the stories in the bible physically happened as described (there was a world wide flood, being swallowed by a whale (or fish as some say) and spit up later, being taken to the sky in a 'machine', Pharaoh being drowned as he followed Moses, Moses going up and coming down from a mountain with tablets, etc.) does this mean there has to be a supreme being behind them?

Couldn't there have been a world wide flood without a being creating it?
Could some old man been swallowed by a whale or fish, only to be spit up later without a being creating doing it?
Could a something have come down from the sky and whisked away someone without a being creating doing it?
Couldn't Pharaoh and his army been drowned in water on their own without a being creating doing it?
Can't a man walk up a mountain and return with 'writings', claiming they've been given to him by a supreme being, without a being creating behind it?

In other words, can't most, if not all, the biblical stories (particularly the ones shared with other cultures with their own deities) have happened as described (or even slightly similar to the biblical description) and been attributed to a 'being' (aka God) by the people of the area for many reasons?
Can there be other, logical reason why these stories happened (if they happened as described) without having any deity, any supernatural being behind them?

Why or why not?

[Tcg]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Some of these could not have happened as described. Jonah could not have survived in the belly of a great fish/whale for three days. There'd be no oxygen supply. Recently, a humpback whale grabbed a lobster fisherman into it's mouth and held him there for 40 seconds or so before spitting him out. The man survived, but it should be noted the fisherman was wearing scuba gear and he was not swallowed. Humans can die in as soon as six minutes without oxygen.

What could happen is some freak event similar the this fisherman's and then humans exaggerated the story bit by bit as it was retold. Add a little religious zeal and you have a tale of being transported in the belly of a great fish/whale for three days to reach a nation God demanded Jonah to preach too. This evolution of the tale could certainly happen and there'd be no need for a supernatural being to cause it.

About the only one that could have happened somewhat as described would be Moses coming down from the mountain with inscribed tablets. It wouldn't have been difficult to plant the tablets prior to the event. Even this wouldn't be exactly as it was described. There'd be no God involved in the creation of the tablets.


Tcg

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Some of these could not have happened as described. Jonah could not have survived in the belly of a great fish/whale for three days. There'd be no oxygen supply. Recently, a humpback whale grabbed a lobster fisherman into it's mouth and held him there for 40 seconds or so before spitting him out. The man survived, but it should be noted the fisherman was wearing scuba gear and he was not swallowed. Humans can die in as soon as six minutes without oxygen.

It may not be possible according to atheism and the naturalistic world view that they typically hold.

However, on Christian theism..

Matt 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

What could happen is some freak event similar the this fisherman's and then humans exaggerated the story bit by bit as it was retold. Add a little religious zeal and you have a tale of being transported in the belly of a great fish/whale for three days to reach a nation God demanded Jonah to preach too. This evolution of the tale could certainly happen and there'd be no need for a supernatural being to cause it.

That^, or; the Almighty God who actually exists orchestrated the entire affair and the author of Jonah simply recorded what actually occured.

About the only one that could have happened somewhat as described would be Moses coming down from the mountain with inscribed tablets. It wouldn't have been difficult to plant the tablets prior to the event. Even this wouldn't be exactly as it was described. There'd be no God involved in the creation of the tablets.


Tcg

"Anything but "Goddidit".

Yup. That's what i got out of it.

[Difflugia]

In other words, can't most, if not all, the biblical stories (particularly the ones shared with other cultures with their own deities) have happened as described (or even slightly similar to the biblical description) and been attributed to a 'being' (aka God) by the people of the area for many reasons?

Can there be other, logical reason why these stories happened (if they happened as described) without having any deity, any supernatural being behind them?

Why or why not?

That's like saying that Little Red Riding Hood wasn't too bright and thought some hairy guy was really a wolf. While it's possible that the fairy tale is a confused account of a historical event, there's little reason to think so. If supernatural elements of a story serve an identifiable literary purpose, then there's not much reason to think that they actually happened. They might have happened, been misinterpreted, and retold as a fairy tale, but the most parsimonious explanation is that the story is just a fairy tale. Maybe the burning bush was really just covered with red flowers, maybe there was a convenient wind storm that blew back the Red Sea, and maybe Jesus wasn't quite dead when he was put in the tomb. Statistically, though, it's way more likely that the stories just needed a supernatural burning bush, parting of the sea, and dead guy coming back to life, so that's what the stories got.

[benchwarmer]

Couldn't there have been a world wide flood without a being creating it?

The flood as described is not physically possible without an outside source of water and a later outside source of removing the water.

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being with a large, external supply of water and sick sense of humor did it
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3).

Could some old man been swallowed by a whale or fish, only to be spit up later without a being creating doing it?

A human cannot survive without oxygen for more than a few minutes (a google search says max recorded is ~11 mins 34 sec), not hours/days.

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being with a strange sense of humor suited up Jonah with some breathing apparatus, some body armor (and probably some lube), and then found one of the few species of whale or large fish that could even get a human to be swallowed (most don't have a large enough opening to their stomach).
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3).

Could a something have come down from the sky and whisked away someone without a being creating doing it?

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being doing research on humans
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3), though if extraterrestrials could reach Earth, (2) is certainly viable given that's what we would likely do if we could reach another populated planet.

Couldn't Pharaoh and his army been drowned in water on their own without a being creating doing it?

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being with something against Pharaoh and his army and a strange penchant for drowning (rather than simply put up a force field or other blocking device avoiding death)
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3). Given the absolute lack of physical evidence for the exodus to begin with, (1) and (2) would have to be: "Goddidit" or Advanced being did it and likes to cleanup the evidence. i.e. magic or technology and a broom or transporter to sweep up.

Can't a man walk up a mountain and return with 'writings', claiming they've been given to him by a supreme being, without a being creating behind it?

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) Somebody else wrote the tablets and left them there
3) Moses wrote the tablets himself
4) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (4), though a mix of (2) through (4) is plausible.

In short, when "Goddidit" is allowed in play, then nothing, regardless of any physical possibility or logical probability or nonsensical reasoning will stop those of faith. However, the verifiable evidence for any of these actually happening is already nonexistent, so the obvious answers left are either story telling or magic. Take your pick.

[nobspeople]

Couldn't there have been a world wide flood without a being creating it?

The flood as described is not physically possible without an outside source of water and a later outside source of removing the water.

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being with a large, external supply of water and sick sense of humor did it
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3).

Could some old man been swallowed by a whale or fish, only to be spit up later without a being creating doing it?

A human cannot survive without oxygen for more than a few minutes (a google search says max recorded is ~11 mins 34 sec), not hours/days.

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being with a strange sense of humor suited up Jonah with some breathing apparatus, some body armor (and probably some lube), and then found one of the few species of whale or large fish that could even get a human to be swallowed (most don't have a large enough opening to their stomach).
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3).

Could a something have come down from the sky and whisked away someone without a being creating doing it?

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being doing research on humans
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3), though if extraterrestrials could reach Earth, (2) is certainly viable given that's what we would likely do if we could reach another populated planet.

Couldn't Pharaoh and his army been drowned in water on their own without a being creating doing it?

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) An advanced being with something against Pharaoh and his army and a strange penchant for drowning (rather than simply put up a force field or other blocking device avoiding death)
3) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (3). Given the absolute lack of physical evidence for the exodus to begin with, (1) and (2) would have to be: "Goddidit" or Advanced being did it and likes to cleanup the evidence. i.e. magic or technology and a broom or transporter to sweep up.

Can't a man walk up a mountain and return with 'writings', claiming they've been given to him by a supreme being, without a being creating behind it?

Some options are:

1) "Goddidit" i.e. magic
2) Somebody else wrote the tablets and left them there
3) Moses wrote the tablets himself
4) Somebody made up a story

My bet is (4), though a mix of (2) through (4) is plausible.

In short, when "Goddidit" is allowed in play, then nothing, regardless of any physical possibility or logical probability or nonsensical reasoning will stop those of faith. However, the verifiable evidence for any of these actually happening is already nonexistent, so the obvious answers left are either story telling or magic. Take your pick.

While I don't disagree with you in any way, I heard someone say this week 'all cultures have a story about a world wide flood'. Now, I'm not saying this person is or isn't right, but it got me thinking: IF these stories could have happened as described (ignoring all science and common sense and logic), does it have to be from God and no one else? Or nothing?
Which is why I asked the question in general.
Please note, I'm not challenging your response, simply replying to it with the reason why I asked to institute a pleasant conversation.
Thanks!!

[Tcg]

While I don't disagree with you in any way, I heard someone say this week 'all cultures have a story about a world wide flood'.

This claim, or one similar to it, gets passed around quite a bit. Most claim a flood story rather than a world wide flood. In any case I've never seen anyone provide documented evidence that this claim is true.

Now, I'm not saying this person is or isn't right, but it got me thinking: IF these stories could have happened as described (ignoring all science and common sense and logic), does it have to be from God and no one else? Or nothing?
Which is why I asked the question in general.
Please note, I'm not challenging your response, simply replying to it with the reason why I asked to institute a pleasant conversation.
Thanks!!

I think the obvious explanation is that reports of major local floods get exaggerated into tales of a great flood that drowned all but a few survivors. However, if we are to ignore science, common sense, and logic and assume a world wide flood happened, then no, there would be no reason to conclude that God was responsible.


Tcg

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Some of these could not have happened as described. Jonah could not have survived in the belly of a great fish/whale for three days. There'd be no oxygen supply. Recently, a humpback whale grabbed a lobster fisherman into it's mouth and held him there for 40 seconds or so before spitting him out. The man survived, but it should be noted the fisherman was wearing scuba gear and he was not swallowed. Humans can die in as soon as six minutes without oxygen.

What could happen is some freak event similar the this fisherman's and then humans exaggerated the story bit by bit as it was retold. Add a little religious zeal and you have a tale of being transported in the belly of a great fish/whale for three days to reach a nation God demanded Jonah to preach too. This evolution of the tale could certainly happen and there'd be no need for a supernatural being to cause it.

About the only one that could have happened somewhat as described would be Moses coming down from the mountain with inscribed tablets. It wouldn't have been difficult to plant the tablets prior to the event. Even this wouldn't be exactly as it was described. There'd be no God involved in the creation of the tablets.


Tcg

I could imagine this is one of those exaggerated Fishing stories alright. It probably all started when one day Jonah came home and said to his wife, "I caught a massive fish this morning, but it got away. It was so big it nearly swallowed me!"

Many of these old biblical stories may indeed be based on true stories, but as humans so love to do, they embellish them to make them more exciting. (Just see the historical movies we get these days!)

When Jesus made the blind to see, perhaps that was simply a metaphor that got blown into a tale of him literally healing the blind? Maybe Noah's Ark was simply the tale of a guy who took a few sheep on a boat across a lake to greener pasture and got caught up in a storm? We will never know just how many of these tales were blown up to sound more interesting than they were. Or how many of them were fictional. Or how many were deliberately edited to try to fulfill prophecies or to make people like Jesus appear divine.

But I do like nobspeople's line of thinking with this thread. Even if some of these tales really did happen as described, that is still no proof that any god was involved. That would have to be demonstrated with more than just the writer claiming there was a god involved.

[OnceConvinced]

While I don't disagree with you in any way, I heard someone say this week 'all cultures have a story about a world wide flood'. Now, I'm not saying this person is or isn't right, but it got me thinking: IF these stories could have happened as described (ignoring all science and common sense and logic), does it have to be from God and no one else? Or nothing?
Which is why I asked the question in general.
Please note, I'm not challenging your response, simply replying to it with the reason why I asked to institute a pleasant conversation.
Thanks!!

Many cultures do indeed have great flood stories. The bible one isn't even the earliest. The oldest one I'm aware of is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is most likely the one that the Jews adopted for their Noah's Ark story. The similarities are uncanny.

You can Google them. I think Wikipedia has a list of them.
I wrote a little article on them here: https://reckersworld.jimdofree.com/reli ... ide-flood/

The thing is, when Christians, in an attempt to back up the Noah's Ark story, try to point out that all cultures have a flood story, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Because if it was all the same flood, then you have people all over the world surviving it, as per their own tales. The bible says that Noah and his family were the ONLY survivors, which would then mean the bible is wrong and we shouldn't take the story seriously... or any other stories in the bible for that matter.

I would say, if there is any truth to it, it was most likely a local flood and the story got spread around and each culture did their own spin on it, adding in their own heroes and gods. The Jews did the same thing and added in their own hero, Noah and their own God, Yahweh.

[William]

If some of the stories in the bible physically happened as described (there was a world wide flood, being swallowed by a whale (or fish as some say) and spit up later, being taken to the sky in a 'machine', Pharaoh being drowned as he followed Moses, Moses going up and coming down from a mountain with tablets, etc.) does this mean there has to be a supreme being behind them?

Couldn't there have been a world wide flood without a being creating it?
Could some old man been swallowed by a whale or fish, only to be spit up later without a being creating doing it?
Could a something have come down from the sky and whisked away someone without a being creating doing it?
Couldn't Pharaoh and his army been drowned in water on their own without a being creating doing it?
Can't a man walk up a mountain and return with 'writings', claiming they've been given to him by a supreme being, without a being creating behind it?

In other words, can't most, if not all, the biblical stories (particularly the ones shared with other cultures with their own deities) have happened as described (or even slightly similar to the biblical description) and been attributed to a 'being' (aka God) by the people of the area for many reasons?
Can there be other, logical reason why these stories happened (if they happened as described) without having any deity, any supernatural being behind them?

Why or why not?

I think that the stories lend themselves to the idea of [a] supreme being[s] behind them, but while The Creator [as an overall idea] would naturally be The Supreme Being, a supreme being is unlikely to be The Creator...re all the biblical stories as well.

Why I think that is because of the subject of "Aliens" which, conceivably could exist as a supremely advanced species that evolved on some planet in the Galaxy. Perhaps some even evolved on Earth, back in the Dino Days.

It could be that their developed cosmology allows them to think of themselves as representative of The Creator and to interact with Humans as if they were The Creator...[Creator's Witnesses] knocking on humanities door and throwing Humans a few scraps of data in which to trigger things within us in an effort to get us to look at what is [our circumstance] in different ways than religious/non-religious ways.

The idea of an overall Creator puts a bounce in my step, and coupling that to the things science is showing us about the universe, just blows my mind into all sorts of neural pathways previously dormant.



The best thing they can do is not show themselves, because we have the tendency to immediately pedestal them or drop dead from the shock...nether response is productive.

Being Creator's Witnesses is a thankless task....