'Don't believe this delta variant nonsense'

[nobspeople]

Does mistrust breed evangelicals or is it the other way around?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/evangelical- ... 35205.html

For discussion:

1) To be a 'real' evangelical, do you have to have an innate mistrust of everyone other than God prior, or does being an evangelical eventually create mistrust in those in power or control?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Since the early months of the coronavirus pandemic, Greg Locke, the pastor at a Nashville-area church, has repeatedly called covid a hoax, undermined emergency mandates and refused to comply with guidance from public health officials."
"If you start showing up [with] all these masks and all this nonsense, I will ask you to leave," Locke, 45, told scores of Global Vision Bible Church parishioners during his sermon on Sunday. His statement was followed by cheers and applause.
2) Does this above statement fall in line with Jesus' teachings?

[1213]

Just what is Covid tyranny/fascism?

Restriction of normal life because some apparently fear a disease that is about as dangerous as common flu. I think the correct way to handle this situation in non tyrannical and fascist way would be that those who fear are allowed to use protection or stay at their home and those who don't fear are allowed to live normally.

Interesting detail is also for example that here in Finland more people died last year to alcohol than to Covid, still no one is forcing new prohibition of alcohol. It appears that all those fascistic rules are set for the benefit of big companies, like in fascistic system.

In light of the fact that that 98% to 99% of the Americans dying today of the coronavirus are unvaccinated* how asleep does one have to be not to recognize the efficacy of the vaccines?

I really don't believe that. And by what I know, normally vaccines are tested about 10 years before they can be used. So, the result of this vast vaccine test are known probably after 10 years and then we can estimate was it worth it, how many died to vaccines or lost other abilities. I personally have had the Covid, according to doctors, and I know many who have had it. I don't think there is any good reason for the vaccine nor the pushing of the vaccines. But, I understand that those who sell the products, are happy when their politicians force their drug to all with this fascistic way. If there would be real bad situation, people would demand it and government would not need to force it to everyone like some evil tyrant.

But, even if your claim is true, I think people should be free to decide do they want the experimental drug or not. I don't think there is any good reason for this medical fascism.

[1213]

I think Jesus came to set people free from tyranny. So, if one is against Covid tyranny/fascism, I think it is on line with the teachings of Jesus.

Apropos of nothing, how do you feel about the right to drive drunk? Would Jesus approve of laws against drunk driving, or are they the tools of tyranny?

You really don’t see any difference in healthy person living normal life and person drunk driving? I could accept that comparison in case, if person knows he is sick, it would be best if he stays at home. I would not have problem with that, but taking basic human rights from healthy people is in my opinion pure evil fascism and tyrannical.

Maybe I could also accept your foolish argument, if Corona would be serious illness like bubonic plague that killed about half of whole population. But Covid has killed now about 0,06% of population, and that seems to include also all deaths that were previously counted for common flu and influenza, which really were about as bad as Covid.

But, if you fear it, why it is not ok to you that you use masks, get vaccine and stay at home and let others live normally? Why the need to force all others to live like germophobic control freaks, when you can protect yourself, if you want?

I don’t think there is any good reason for the Covid fascism.

[Tcg]

I really don't believe that.

What one does or does not believe has no bearing on reality. This man believed he didn't need to get vaccinated:

LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus

A California man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines on social media has died after a month-long battle with the virus.

Stephen Harmon, a member of the Hillsong megachurch, had been a vocal opponent of vaccines, making a series of jokes about not having the vaccine.

"Got 99 problems but a vax ain't one," the 34-year-old tweeted to his 7,000 followers in June.

He was treated for pneumonia and Covid-19 in a hospital outside Los Angeles, where he died on Wednesday.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57958358

Not surprisingly, and pertinent to this thread, he was a member of a Christian Church.


Tcg

[Difflugia]

Apropos of nothing, how do you feel about the right to drive drunk? Would Jesus approve of laws against drunk driving, or are they the tools of tyranny?

You really don’t see any difference in healthy person living normal life and person drunk driving?

Of course I do, but the differences aren't the only things to consider, especially when the similarities are much more striking.

In that light, I'll redirect your question. You really don't see anything similar about a person taking unnecessary risks with the lives of others and a person driving drunk?

Maybe I could also accept your foolish argument, if Corona would be serious illness like bubonic plague that killed about half of whole population.

You know, before an argument can even be called "specious," it has to appear valid from at least some perspective. I'm not sure this qualifies.

But Covid has killed now about 0,06% of population, and that seems to include also all deaths that were previously counted for common flu and influenza, which really were about as bad as Covid.

In 2018, the most recent flu season with no possibility of overlap with COVID-19, influenza killed 34,000 people in the United States. In 2020, COVID-19 killed 300,000 people in the United States. So, in your mind, numbers are about the same as long as they're within an order of magnitude of each other?

For perspective, drunk drivers kill about 10,000 people per year. Heck, that's almost zero.

I don’t think there is any good reason for the Covid fascism.

Would a calculator help?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

I really don't believe that. And by what I know, normally vaccines are tested about 10 years before they can be used. So, the result of this vast vaccine test are known probably after 10 years and then we can estimate was it worth it, how many died to vaccines or lost other abilities.

I've heard a lot of people in the media, or them interviewing people "on the street", make comments about the relatively short time periods involved in development of the Covid vaccines, and comparing this to earlier vaccine development efforts and the time it took for those. But the technical progress in genetics understanding and in laboratory procedures for sequencing DNA and other genetic tools (eg. CRSPR) have advanced exponentially in the last 20 years, and especially in the last decade. So vaccine development SHOULD be far faster and more efficient that it was in the past.

The human genome project (an effort to sequence the entire genome of the human) began in 1990 and ended in 2003 (genome "complete" in 2001, published in 2004). To arrive at the full genome sequence for one person cost nearly 3 billion dollars over a decade or so of time:

https://www.genome.gov/human-genome-pro ... -of-Events

Today, a full human genome can be sequenced in only about an hour (although analyzing it takes much longer), and the cost is around $100:

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... story.html

It really is amazing how far things have come with genetics research in the last 10-20 years. The Covid-19 virus genome was fully sequenced in something like 24 hours after the virus was identified and isolated.

So I'd argue that the relatively short time frame for vaccine development is no surprise, and actually expected, and nothing to be alarmed about as far as efficacy. All of the big boys (pharma companies) jumped on this immediately and got the job done.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

I really don't believe that. And by what I know, normally vaccines are tested about 10 years before they can be used. So, the result of this vast vaccine test are known probably after 10 years and then we can estimate was it worth it, how many died to vaccines or lost other abilities.

I've heard a lot of people in the media, or them interviewing people "on the street", make comments about the relatively short time periods involved in development of the Covid vaccines, and comparing this to earlier vaccine development efforts and the time it took for those. But the technical progress in genetics understanding and in laboratory procedures for sequencing DNA and other genetic tools (eg. CRSPR) have advanced exponentially in the last 20 years, and especially in the last decade. So vaccine development SHOULD be far faster and more efficient that it was in the past.

The human genome project (an effort to sequence the entire genome of the human) began in 1990 and ended in 2003 (genome "complete" in 2001, published in 2004). To arrive at the full genome sequence for one person cost nearly 3 billion dollars over a decade or so of time:

https://www.genome.gov/human-genome-pro ... -of-Events

Today, a full human genome can be sequenced in only about an hour (although analyzing it takes much longer), and the cost is around $100:

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bu ... story.html

It really is amazing how far things have come with genetics research in the last 10-20 years. The Covid-19 virus genome was fully sequenced in something like 24 hours after the virus was identified and isolated.

So I'd argue that the relatively short time frame for vaccine development is no surprise, and actually expected, and nothing to be alarmed about as far as efficacy. All of the big boys (pharma companies) jumped on this immediately and got the job done.

This show a couple of things:
1) How people without knowledge of how things work, are created, delivered, et al, can (sometimes due to no fault of their own) fall into ignorance on a specific topic
2) How easy it is to spread opinion
3) How easy it is to accept opinion as fact
4) Ignore new information in order to stay within the 'conspiracy bubble' or the like.

Thanks for the input into this topic

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to 1213 in post #13]

It is important to remember that the primary reason given for wearing masks at the onset of this pandemic was to reduce the rate at which people contract the virus (i.e. "flatten the curve") for the sake of not overwhelming the medical facilities because those services are also needed for treating people with other and more serious life-threatening conditions. So, any argument about COVID-19 being less deadly than the bubonic plague is not relevant to the fact that the rapid influx of COVID-19 patients at hospitals will make it more difficult for them to find space and resources for other people who are also in need of serious and immediate medical attention. As such, whether you disagree with a mandatory mask requirement or not, you wear a mask in the interest of ensuring our medical facilities don't become overwhelmed in case you may need their services in a life-threatening emergency. Similarly, whether you agree with seatbelt laws or not, you wear a seatbelt because it prevents you from receiving more serious injuries during less severe car accidents and won't require as much or any treatment at a nearby medical facility. Given the number of car accidents that occur each day, the medical facilities would quickly become overwhelmed with people needing treatment for injuries sustained during minor collisions if a significant number of people chose to not use a seatbelt. Accordingly, a law requiring seatbelt use in cars has been established. This affords the medical facilities more space and resources to treat other people who are more in need of their services.

[Miles]

Just what is Covid tyranny/fascism?

Restriction of normal life because some apparently fear a disease that is about as dangerous as common flu.

Really! Then obviously you haven't been paying attention to the numbers. Here, let me help you out with figures from the United States.


Figures representing the period of March 2020 through July 2021

Flu
Adjusted from latest yearly figures.

12.4 -15 million cases (average= 13.7 million)
15,000 - 81,333 deaths (average= 48,166)

Covid-19
Latest update: 28 July 2021, 9:10 am GMT-7.

34,391,413 Confirmed cases,
,,,,606,263 Confirmed deaths

Difference

Covid-19 # of cases 34,391,413
Flu.........# of cases 13.700,000

2.5 times as many covid-19 cases

Covid-19 # of deaths 606,263
Flu .........# of deaths 48,166

12.6 times as many Covid-19 deaths


Sources
flu: https://www.familiesfightingflu.org/flu ... at-is-flu/
Covid-19: https://www.who.int/countries/usa/

I think the correct way to handle this situation in non tyrannical and fascist way would be that those who fear are allowed to use protection or stay at their home and those who don't fear are allowed to live normally.

Interesting detail is also for example that here in Finland more people died last year to alcohol than to Covid, still no one is forcing new prohibition of alcohol. It appears that all those fascistic rules are set for the benefit of big companies, like in fascistic system.

In light of the fact that that 98% to 99% of the Americans dying today of the coronavirus are unvaccinated* how asleep does one have to be not to recognize the efficacy of the vaccines?

I really don't believe that. And by what I know, normally vaccines are tested about 10 years before they can be used. So, the result of this vast vaccine test are known probably after 10 years and then we can estimate was it worth it, how many died to vaccines or lost other abilities. I personally have had the Covid, according to doctors, and I know many who have had it. I don't think there is any good reason for the vaccine nor the pushing of the vaccines. But, I understand that those who sell the products, are happy when their politicians force their drug to all with this fascistic way. If there would be real bad situation, people would demand it and government would not need to force it to everyone like some evil tyrant.

Of course not, because the US government is just a bunch of "Sexist, Egotistical, Lying, Hypocritical Bigots!"

But, even if your claim is true, I think people should be free to decide do they want the experimental drug or not. I don't think there is any good reason for this medical fascism.

Not at the expense and inconvenience of others they shouldn't.


.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Miles in post #19]

The worldwide numbers are of course much higher:

Coronavirus Cases:
196,550,277

Deaths:
4,201,041

Recovered:
177,943,980

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... meAdvegas1?


Tcg

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

But, even if your claim is true, I think people should be free to decide do they want the experimental drug or not.

Why do you call the vaccines "experimental drugs"? This is another comman tactic to try and paint a picture that the vaccines are not safe, or were rushed without proper testing. While it is true that approvals in the U.S. are currently under emergency use guidelines, those were not just willy-nilly passed without the required extensive, phased trials. As this article (and many others like it) points out:

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/were- ... nes-rushed

SARS-CoV-2 was a new virus but it belongs to a family of coronaviruses that have been studied for 50 years or more. So the vaccine developers were not starting from nothing. They already knew that the spike protein could be targeted with a vaccine. And the shear amount of money and manpower that was directed toward vaccine development ... worldwide ... allowed the relatively rapid development and the proper phased clinical trials. Some 1.1 billion people around the world have been fully vaccinated as of late July, 2021:

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccin ... y=OWID_WRL

There is adequate evidence that the vaccines are safe, prevent more serious symptoms if someone is infected, and drastically reduces the death rate among the vaccinated as has already been pointed out in earlier posts.