'Don't believe this delta variant nonsense'

[nobspeople]

Does mistrust breed evangelicals or is it the other way around?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/evangelical- ... 35205.html

For discussion:

1) To be a 'real' evangelical, do you have to have an innate mistrust of everyone other than God prior, or does being an evangelical eventually create mistrust in those in power or control?
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"Since the early months of the coronavirus pandemic, Greg Locke, the pastor at a Nashville-area church, has repeatedly called covid a hoax, undermined emergency mandates and refused to comply with guidance from public health officials."
"If you start showing up [with] all these masks and all this nonsense, I will ask you to leave," Locke, 45, told scores of Global Vision Bible Church parishioners during his sermon on Sunday. His statement was followed by cheers and applause.
2) Does this above statement fall in line with Jesus' teachings?

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #13]

It is important to remember that the primary reason given for wearing masks at the onset of this pandemic was to reduce the rate at which people contract the virus ...

Yes, that is quite nice idea. One problem with it is that according to Fauci they are useless.

https://thepostmillennial.com/fauci-ema ... ngineered/

Obviously, you can explain that Fauchi meant something else, in which case I would like to know what do you think about this: vapour goes through the masks (ffp2) easily, I have tested it, is the virus bigger than vapour?

Also, statistics show that they have not have any meaningful effect.

But, I don’t think any data would convince true believers, that is why we can ignore it and focus on the main point, I think it is wrong to force the masks, even if they would help, I think it is fascism and tyrannical. It would be enough if those who fear use masks or better and those who don’t fear, live normally.

[1213]

...
It really is amazing how far things have come with genetics research in the last 10-20 years. The Covid-19 virus genome was fully sequenced in something like 24 hours after the virus was identified and isolated.

So I'd argue that the relatively short time frame for vaccine development is no surprise, and actually expected, and nothing to be alarmed about as far as efficacy. All of the big boys (pharma companies) jumped on this immediately and got the job done.

Yes, I have no problem in believing that it can be developed fast, all though it is quite amazing how it is possible, when corona viruses have been known about 100 years and no vaccine could have been developed in that time. That is not relevant here, because the problem is, it was not tested, and vaccines should normally be tested. By what I know, vaccines should be tested 10-15 years before use. They can’t know any long-term effects for the “vaccine” and I think that is the problem. That problem would be less bad, if the companies would have liability and would have to pay, if patients die or suffer in following 15 years.

But, also this has interesting questions, for example was it really patented long before this event as some claim. That would explain why so fast. Also, some claim that the virus has not even been sequenced and it is possible. Would be really nice to know how it is really.

[1213]

In 2018, the most recent flu season with no possibility of overlap with COVID-19, influenza killed 34,000 people in the United States. In 2020, COVID-19 killed 300,000 people in the United States. So, in your mind, numbers are about the same as long as they're within an order of magnitude of each other?

Ok, ten times more is maybe not that close, but for example, I live in Finland and in 2018 we had 303 [1] deaths to Influenza and pneumonia. And in 2020 561 [2] deaths to Covid. Yes, it is allegedly more still, but I don’t think that is very meaningful difference, especially when it is very old people who die, who would probably have died to any similar virus. And I think it is good to notice, we didn’t have masks basically until the end of the year. So, masks really seem to be useless. But it may also be wrong to compare single years, because the numbers of people are not the same. In a year that has lot of over 80-year-old people, it is more probable to see larger numbers. That is why age structure and population number should be noticed in these comparisons.

[1] https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/fin ... -pneumonia
[2] https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cou ... le/finland

[Difflugia]

Ok, ten times more is maybe not that close, but for example, I live in Finland and in 2018 we had 303 [1] deaths to Influenza and pneumonia. And in 2020 561 [2] deaths to Covid. Yes, it is allegedly more still, but I don’t think that is very meaningful difference

Are you actually arguing that a much smaller sample size leads to statistically better data?

In case you are, I've got a doozy. In 2018, zero of my uncles were killed by influenza, but in 2021 one of my uncles was killed by COVID-19. He wasn't vaccinated even after the vaccine was widely available ("'Cause that's how they get you!") and it should surprise nobody that he was also an avid churchgoer. I'll leave it to the reader to guess what color his favorite hat was.

Yes, it is allegedly more still, but I don’t think that is very meaningful difference, especially when it is very old people who die, who would probably have died to any similar virus.

Yeah. And if it hadn't been antivaxxers, I'm sure my elderly uncle would probably have been killed by similar conspiracy nuts.

"Chemtrails! Let's drunk drive away from here!"

[Mithrae]

In 2018, the most recent flu season with no possibility of overlap with COVID-19, influenza killed 34,000 people in the United States. In 2020, COVID-19 killed 300,000 people in the United States. So, in your mind, numbers are about the same as long as they're within an order of magnitude of each other?

Ok, ten times more is maybe not that close, but for example, I live in Finland and in 2018 we had 303 [1] deaths to Influenza and pneumonia. And in 2020 561 [2] deaths to Covid. Yes, it is allegedly more still, but I don’t think that is very meaningful difference, especially when it is very old people who die, who would probably have died to any similar virus. And I think it is good to notice, we didn’t have masks basically until the end of the year. So, masks really seem to be useless. But it may also be wrong to compare single years, because the numbers of people are not the same. In a year that has lot of over 80-year-old people, it is more probable to see larger numbers. That is why age structure and population number should be noticed in these comparisons.

[1] https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/fin ... -pneumonia
[2] https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cou ... le/finland

So in 2020 Covid killed almost twice as many Finnish people as influenza had in 2018, despite being halfway through winter by the time its spread was taking off and despite a national lockdown introduced mid-March lasting two months to contain the spread. In the USA - with considerably less/patchier "tyranny" and "fear" as you call it but still substantial prevention and containment regulations imposed in most states by mid April - Covid killed around ten times as many people as flu had... 364,000 in 2020 and following a full winter season almost the same again by July 2021.

By implication, the world you are dreaming of with no "tyranny" at all is a world in which Covid would kill far more people still. Could you give us a ballpark estimate on how many hundreds of thousands of lives would need to be lost before you would describe preventative regulations as "sensible safeguards" rather than "tyranny"? Or how many millions of lives your supposedly Jesus-given right to breathe free (mask-free that is, not virus-free) is worth sacrificing?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to 1213 in post #33]

That is not relevant here, because the problem is, it was not tested, and vaccines should normally be tested.

Not tested? That was the whole purpose of the clinical trials undertaken by every company who eventually asked for emergency use authorization for their vaccine. You seem to be ignoring the tremendous advances in genetics over the last 2-3 decades, and in the understanding of the molecular basis of many diseases. In the early days of Covid-19, hospitals were being overrun, there was an acute lack of respirators and PPE for the frontline workers, etc. Lots of people died as a result and every company who had the capacity and financial resources to contribute to vaccine development did so to address a building global pandemic. There was great urgency to get vaccines developed, and the Covid-19 geneome was sequenced within days of if being isolated which sped up the process tremendously compared to what would have been possible even 20-30 years ago.

By what I know, vaccines should be tested 10-15 years before use.

In what historical time frame? I'm sure that may have been true in the early 20th century, and it took about that long to assess the efficacy in those days. But it is 2021 now and medical advances allow these kinds of things to proceed on much shorter time scales. Not just in the mechanics of creating vaccines and other medications, but in understanding the molecular basis of how they work which increases the ability to predict their effects in animals (including humans) far beyond just guessing, or extrapolating from animal to human as had to be done in decades past. We've come a long way since the first smallpox vaccines!

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #33]

That is not relevant here, because the problem is, it was not tested, and vaccines should normally be tested.

Not tested? That was the whole purpose of the clinical trials undertaken by every company who eventually asked for emergency use authorization for their vaccine. You seem to be ignoring the tremendous advances in genetics over the last 2-3 decades, and in the understanding of the molecular basis of many diseases. In the early days of Covid-19, hospitals were being overrun, there was an acute lack of respirators and PPE for the frontline workers, etc. Lots of people died as a result and every company who had the capacity and financial resources to contribute to vaccine development did so to address a building global pandemic. There was great urgency to get vaccines developed, and the Covid-19 geneome was sequenced within days of if being isolated which sped up the process tremendously compared to what would have been possible even 20-30 years ago.

By what I know, vaccines should be tested 10-15 years before use.

In what historical time frame? I'm sure that may have been true in the early 20th century, and it took about that long to assess the efficacy in those days. But it is 2021 now and medical advances allow these kinds of things to proceed on much shorter time scales. Not just in the mechanics of creating vaccines and other medications, but in understanding the molecular basis of how they work which increases the ability to predict their effects in animals (including humans) far beyond just guessing, or extrapolating from animal to human as had to be done in decades past. We've come a long way since the first smallpox vaccines!

When someone says 'it wasn't tested', there's not much more you can say to convince them otherwise.
Sometimes, first hand experience is the best teacher.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #38]

When someone says 'it wasn't tested', there's not much more you can say to convince them otherwise.

Yes ... and there are a lot of people in that category it seems. I saw some member of Congress ranting a day or two ago about a new requirement for masking there, and he drew the conclusion that if masking was reinstated that was equivalent to saying that the vaccines don't work. He completely missed the point (or intentionally ignored it, most likely) that it is the unvaccinated that are mostly responsible for the Delta variant spread and the rise in cases and hospitalizations with serious illness.

He apparently does not understand the fundamental idea that if enough people are vaccinated, or have immunity from prior infection, that we may untimately reach herd immunity and put these surges and associated inconveniences behind us. Or else his politics trumps everything else and he's just playing to his base, demonstrating a serious lack of responsibility.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #38]

When someone says 'it wasn't tested', there's not much more you can say to convince them otherwise.

Yes ... and there are a lot of people in that category it seems. I saw some member of Congress ranting a day or two ago about a new requirement for masking there, and he drew the conclusion that if masking was reinstated that was equivalent to saying that the vaccines don't work. He completely missed the point (or intentionally ignored it, most likely) that it is the unvaccinated that are mostly responsible for the Delta variant spread and the rise in cases and hospitalizations with serious illness.

He apparently does not understand the fundamental idea that if enough people are vaccinated, or have immunity from prior infection, that we may untimately reach herd immunity and put these surges and associated inconveniences behind us. Or else his politics trumps everything else and he's just playing to his base, demonstrating a serious lack of responsibility.

Personally, I wouldn't use the word 'understand' much when dealing with politicians outside the ability for them to understand how to get more votes and thus prolong their (mostly) undeserved salary.
Outside of that 'group' of 'people', this lack of understanding (intentional or not) seems to stem from the mistrust in most, if not all, forms of groups that control, the odd need to shun all sort of control (oddly, much of this come from christians and believers who are one of the most controlled groups on the planet even though they don't see it) or just stupidity and or ignornance. Or a combination of all these options.
But, when you're living your life based off a book written by dead men about a highly mythological and or understood being and the taught ability to change the definition of the words 'believe' and 'know', it shouldn't be surprising.

[1213]

...Not tested? ...
....and it took about that long to assess the efficacy in those days. But it is 2021 now and medical advances allow these kinds of things to proceed on much shorter time scales. ...

I don’t claim they are not tested. I only say, they are not tested as they normally should be. And no one really knows what is the effect of this experimental drug after 10 years.