Prayer

[POI]

Does God fulfill petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests?

Thank you in advance

[1213]

...It seems to me that if someone can always say "No, it was because of something else", then there is no really good reason to believe in a supernatural explanation. The fact that we can always point to natural explanations, seems to be an indication that maybe there is no supernatural explanation at all and that prayers are not being answered.

The same goes also with ”natural” explanation, it is always possible to says “No, it was because of something else”. That people say it was something else, does not necessary mean they are correct.

And I think prayers are answered as promised in the Bible.

[nobspeople]

Does God fulfill petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests?

Thank you in advance

The churches I've been to taught the answer is YES, but they always added the caveat that 'within his will'. Which seems to defeat the purpose of these type of prayers really, but whatever.
If prayers 'go into the ether' (aka there is no god to hear them) and they help the persons praying or being prayed for (even if it a placebo-like effect), I say go for it.

[OnceConvinced]

...It seems to me that if someone can always say "No, it was because of something else", then there is no really good reason to believe in a supernatural explanation. The fact that we can always point to natural explanations, seems to be an indication that maybe there is no supernatural explanation at all and that prayers are not being answered.

The same goes also with ”natural” explanation, it is always possible to says “No, it was because of something else”. That people say it was something else, does not necessary mean they are correct.

It first has to be demonstrated that a supernatural explanation is even a possibility. No one has ever been able to do that. Until then, a natural explanation is the only thing a logical and rational mind should be considering.

And I think prayers are answered as promised in the Bible.

And prayers to other Gods are also answered, if you believe what their adherents say. That's not saying much.

The thing is, there could be no god and you could still claim that all prayers are answered because it can always be put down to one of the following:

Yes
No
Wait
There are bigger things in store for you

I figure you might as well pray to fairies. You'll get exactly the same results.

I know myself, after 40 years of praying that it was hit and miss. Most of the times prayer didn't seem to work. But you would always grasp hold of the things you believed were answers to prayer. But there was still no real way to know whether those things were a result of prayer or for other reasons. When I look back now they all seem to have natural explanations (generally as a result of human actions) so I don't see any reason to accredit them to the supernatural anymore.

[1213]

It first has to be demonstrated that a supernatural explanation is even a possibility. No one has ever been able to do that. Until then, a natural explanation is the only thing a logical and rational mind should be considering.

What if there is no reasonable natural explanation? I don't think you can give any reasonable natural explanation for life, and even if you could give an explanation, it is still just an explanation, not truth or fact. I think it is extremely irrational to go with natural explanation, without anything supporting it.

The thing is, there could be no god and you could still claim that all prayers are answered because it can always be put down to one of the following:... ...I figure you might as well pray to fairies. You'll get exactly the same results.

The problem is, you have nothing to support that claim.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #15]

The problem is, you have nothing to support that claim.

What do you have to support your claim? A book of stories? Anecdotal evidence that can't be proven to be anything other than wishful thinking? Not much different than what you seem to be accusing others of here.

What if there is no reasonable natural explanation?

I suppose one has a couple options: 1) say ; 2) claim 'God'; 3) try to find a explanation or 4) ignore it altogether.

even if you could give an explanation, it is still just an explanation, not truth or fact.

Which is no different than what you do as a christian, in a sense. You just attribute it to 'god'. The only 'truth' or 'fact' about god is dead people wrote a book about him, and others (many dead) edited and translated it. All else is faith based. Which is fine and all, just as long as it's seen that way. So be careful of accusing others of not having 'facts' or 'truth' when you yourself can't provide much, if any, on your own, chosen life path.

I think it is extremely irrational to go with natural explanation, without anything supporting it.

I'm sure. Just like some think it is extremely irrational to go with the 'god' explanation, without anything supporting it past tales told of others and or written in a book, and what one attributes to God.
But then again, there's nothing rational about god at all so it comes as no surprise, really.

[OnceConvinced]

It first has to be demonstrated that a supernatural explanation is even a possibility. No one has ever been able to do that. Until then, a natural explanation is the only thing a logical and rational mind should be considering.

What if there is no reasonable natural explanation?

Then the only logical and rational response is to say we don't know how/why it happened. We don't just get to label it supernatural. We don't just say "Goddidit".

I don't think you can give any reasonable natural explanation for life, and even if you could give an explanation, it is still just an explanation, not truth or fact.

This discussion isn't about how life came to be, it's about answers to prayer. But even so, if you are going to talk about that, then the most rational, logical thing to say is "We don't know how life came into existence".

You can't just say because we have no other answer that it must have been a god. That's not rational or logical to do that. No one has ever demonstrated life starting by an act of God, so therefore it should not be considered until it can be demonstrated. On the other hand, EVERY life we have seen come into existence has been a result of natural explanations.

I think it is extremely irrational to go with natural explanation, without anything supporting it.

So you think that automatically claiming "Goddidit" is rational??

Most times a prayer is answered we can point to a possible natural explanation for it, as you, yourself have pointed out with your original comment I quoted: "I think someone can always say “no, it was because something else”."

eg: If you pray for finances and the next day some guy gives you a few hundred dollars, then the natural explanation is that it was the guy who gave you the money, not God. Unless you can prove that God violated that guy's freewill to make him give you that money... or that he laid you on that guy's heart, then you have no justification in claiming it was God that gave you the money. It is far more rational to believe that a kind hearted person saw a need, had compassion and gave you the money.

But if we can't justify a natural explanation, does that justify anyone claiming it must be supernatural? Is it rational to just presume the supernatural because you don't have a natural answer?

Natural explanations are the only ones we can show as being real.

The thing is, there could be no god and you could still claim that all prayers are answered because it can always be put down to one of the following:... ...I figure you might as well pray to fairies. You'll get exactly the same results.

The problem is, you have nothing to support that claim.

I have as much evidence to support fairies answering prayers as you have of God answering prayers.

Let me ask you another question. If you have an apparent answered prayer, how do you determine whether it's as a result of something natural or a result of something supernatural?

And another. If I pray to a fairy and get a positive result, am I justified in saying that a fairy answered my prayer? If not, why not?

[POI]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

If petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests are made for the removal of one with cerebral palsy, downs syndrome, and/or are requesting the return of an amputated limb, then God is objectively not fulfilling such prayer requests; ever.

[1213]

…You can't just say because we have no other answer that it must have been a god…

Ok, I don’t say that.

I think it is extremely irrational to go with natural explanation, without anything supporting it.

So you think that automatically claiming "Goddidit" is rational??

God did it is rational, because there is nothing in nature that supports the idea that life could come into existence from dead material on its own. If that would be possible, we should be able to observe it in nature, or at least make it happen in laboratory, in such way that could at least in theory happen in nature, without human or other causing it.

If you pray for finances and the next day some guy gives you a few hundred dollars, then the natural explanation is that it was the guy who gave you the money, not God. Unless you can prove that God violated that guy's freewill to make him give you that money... or that he laid you on that guy's heart, then you have no justification in claiming it was God that gave you the money. It is far more rational to believe that a kind hearted person saw a need, had compassion and gave you the money.

I don’t like to ask money because I feel it is cheating. Which is maybe little funny, because even if I work and get money, I think God is to be thanked for that. I think everything I have is because of God. And I am thankful for Him for that I have enough everything. But, in the example you gave, I think there are at least two things to consider:

1. God doesn’t have to violate free will to make someone to give money. He could convince the person to think it is a good idea and then the person does it because he wants to do it, by his own free will.

2. Even if God would not give the idea to the person, it is possible that God knows there is a random guy who is going to do it and leads me to that person and so I happen to get it and thank God for the opportunity.

It is not necessary that God give it personally for me to thank Him, because I think He makes it possible.

Let me ask you another question. If you have an apparent answered prayer, how do you determine whether it's as a result of something natural or a result of something supernatural?

Maybe it can’t be known. I say I believe; it is enough for me. One example of my prayer is that when I was much younger, I read about Solomon, how he asked wisdom, and I also read this:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

I thought that I was stupid, when I was a kid, that is why I prayed God to give me wisdom. I was probably under 15 then and now, many decades later, can we say did I get the wisdom? How could you know that? I believe God has answered and given me more than I could have imagined. As you probably think, that can be said to be just my subjective experience, nothing real.

I trust to God and I am sure He hears my prayers, but I don’t have the need to convince everyone to believe that God really answers. But I don’t think there is anything to lose, in praying. And if you ask something that is not good, perhaps you should understand that the answer can be “no”.

And another. If I pray to a fairy and get a positive result, am I justified in saying that a fairy answered my prayer? If not, why not?

I think you are free to believe whatever you want. But perhaps I would need to know first, why you did so and what did you ask.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

If petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests are made for the removal of one with cerebral palsy, downs syndrome, and/or are requesting the return of an amputated limb, then God is objectively not fulfilling such prayer requests; ever.

I don’t know, but even if He did, some could say it was some natural cause.

[Tcg]

[Replying to 1213 in post #12]

If petitionary and/or intercessory prayer requests are made for the removal of one with cerebral palsy, downs syndrome, and/or are requesting the return of an amputated limb, then God is objectively not fulfilling such prayer requests; ever.

I don’t know, but even if He did, some could say it was some natural cause.

The fact is, unless you can present otherwise, nothing like this has ever happened. God specializes, pretending for a moment that he exists, in helping people find parking spaces close to a store or helping people find their car keys before they can drive to the parking lot where they'll pray for a special spot to park.


Tcg