Faith Heaing?

[POI]

This thread is a spin-off for the already created topic "Prayer"....

The Bible instructs that God grants prayer requests - i.e. (Matthew 7:7), (Matthew 21:22), (Mark 11:24), (John 14:13-14), and (John 16:23); to name a few....

Let's assume the provided faith healer is genuine, and is a true believer. Many faith healers travel from place to place, and apparently offer cures for many, or at least claim to...

Why won't the faith healers ever seem to bother trying to pray for the regrowth of an amputated limb, or pray for the removal of someone's cerebral palsy, or pray for someone's child to no longer have downs syndrome? Or do they? And when they do, do they already know God will not answer the call, as instructed in the Bible?

Or is it because:

A. The faith healer knows God does not cure these particular conditions, and hence, the faith healer does not bother praying for the removal of them? Which begs the follow up question; why does the faith healer know this?
B. The faith healer does pray for the reversal of these conditions, and when these conditions always perpetually continue, the faith healer states "God has not answered (yet)"; even though the unfortunate recipients of these conditions will die with these conditions?
C. Faith healers know, deep down, they are a fraud, and are doing this for other reasons?
D. Other?

In line with Scripture, it seems to me quite odd that God is claimed to answer prayer, time and time again, but always skips over amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome.?.?.?.?

[brunumb]

The devil's "short period of time" is almost up...

On what basis has this conclusion been established?

...he is pulling out all the stops now, rather than just subtle deception, he is truly right in our faces, hitting us with one disaster after another.

Exactly how is the devil doing all this and what criteria can be used to distinguish between disasters caused by the devil and disasters which are just the result of natural phenomena?

[brunumb]

[Replying to Tcg in post #90]

I watched that Four Corners program on Monday. The hope it gave was that maybe some of the offenders will finally be brought to account.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #90]

I watched that Four Corners program on Monday. The hope it gave was that maybe some of the offenders will finally be brought to account.

Let's hope so. Oddly enough, when religion is involved, Johnny Law is quite hesitant to act. Hopefully it will be different this time.


Tcg

[Diagoras]

The only thing that can cure cancer is a person's own immune system.

This is demonstrably incorrect, and does a grave disservice to many people in the medical profession: people who successfully treat cancers with a variety of procedures and techniques.

A very quick search for 'effective cancer treatments' brought up a vast amount of information on the subject. Here is just one example.

I had a friend who was given a brain scan for something unrelated, only to be told that she had had a tumor but that her immune system had dealt with it. She had been on a super immune booster diet at the time, unaware that she even had a tumor.

Have you heard of the post hoc fallacy? Your story about your friend is a textbook example of this kind of faulty logical reasoning. As explained here, medicine is "rife with post hoc examples".

Getting perhaps slightly off-topic, I was also curious about this:

You cannot make demands of the Creator as if he somehow cannot do without us. He did without us for a very long time.

Do you then accept the estimate of the age of the universe (13.77 billion years old) as accurate?

[Jemima]

The only thing that can cure cancer is a person's own immune system.

This is demonstrably incorrect, and does a grave disservice to many people in the medical profession: people who successfully treat cancers with a variety of procedures and techniques.

I have a very strong opinion of the current medical establishment and it would probably offend you (like they offend me)......so let's not go there.

Let's just say that the "cure rate" for their appallingly inept "treatments" for cancer, is not that great.....and after people have endured their barbaric treatment, they are lucky if they get another 5 years before the cancer returns. I like Olivia Newton-John's approach personally.

A very quick search for 'effective cancer treatments' brought up a vast amount of information on the subject. Here is just one example.

Does it not strike you as odd that science, with all its knowledge and technology, can't even cure the common cold? But I do believe that if there was a cure for the common cold, or even cancer, they would never let it out of the box. The pharma companies are too busy making a fortune out of our illnesses to ever let us be cured of anything. "Treatments" are all they offer......preferably ones that go on indefinitely, ensuring that you become their customer for life.
Don't get me started....

I had a friend who was given a brain scan for something unrelated, only to be told that she had had a tumor but that her immune system had dealt with it. She had been on a super immune booster diet at the time, unaware that she even had a tumor.

Have you heard of the post hoc fallacy? Your story about your friend is a textbook example of this kind of faulty logical reasoning. As explained here, medicine is "rife with post hoc examples".

Ah yes, the anecdotal evidence that confirms what medical science denies.....the discovery of her tumor was observed through an MRI for something unrelated. Her doctor was the one who informed her that her own immune system had destroyed the tumor and told her how 'lucky' she was.
The fact that she was on that immune boosting diet was not co-incidental. It probably saved her life in a way that chemo never would have because chemo suppresses the immune system.

There are so many examples online of those who were told by the medical professionals to go home and get their affairs in order because there was nothing more they could do for them....but thankfully they did not go home in defeat, waiting to die.....they tried alternative therapies and are still here to tell their story....don't expect the mainstream media to report any of them.

Getting perhaps slightly off-topic, I was also curious about this:

You cannot make demands of the Creator as if he somehow cannot do without us. He did without us for a very long time.

Do you then accept the estimate of the age of the universe (13.77 billion years old) as accurate?

As I am not a YEC, I have no problem with the age of the earth or the universe. I do not believe that the Creator is confined to earth time any more than he would be confined to Jupiter's time or any other planet's time. Creation is not the product of 6/24 hour days. The Bible does not teach this, contrary to popular belief. The "days" according to Genesis could each have been periods of great length....even millions of years. The word "day" in Hebrew is not confined to a 24 hour period...it can mean periods of undetermined length.

The other factor to consider is that there was "evening and morning" which is not a 24 hour period. Evening to morning can vary in length depending of the season and your location. It simply indicates the end of one creative period and the beginning of a new one.

As I have said, God is not a magician...the is a purposeful Creator.

[brunumb]

Does it not strike you as odd that science, with all its knowledge and technology, can't even cure the common cold?

Well if Jehovah designed viruses who are we mere humans to overcome his creations so readily? That said, an intelligently designed human body would not be so susceptible to things like cancer either. Oh, wait. Cue the Christian Loophole Card, Satan. And to accept all the nonsense in the Bible but then indulge in conspiracy theories and related fantasies just boggles the mind.

[Diagoras]

I have a very strong opinion of the current medical establishment and it would probably offend you (like they offend me)......so let's not go there.

I too have a strong opinion of the medical establishment. I'm not offended by you having an opinion - I just strongly disagree with you. Saying "let's not go there" as if that prevents someone offering a counter-claim to your argument is not in the spirit of forum debate, so my advice to you is: if you're going to say it, expect to be challenged on it.

Let's just say that the "cure rate" for their appallingly inept "treatments" for cancer, is not that great.....and after people have endured their barbaric treatment, they are lucky if they get another 5 years before the cancer returns.

No, let's not "just say". Let's actually do a little bit of work and research 'cancer survival rates' to establish the true picture. Since you're referencing five years, I'll offer this article from the U.K:

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resour ... background

It should be obvious from looking at that first bar chart that five-year survival rates vary enormously between different types of cancer. However, the rates for those much more common cancers (e.g. of the breast, prostate and melanomas) are around the 90% mark. By way of contrast, mesothelioma is fairly rare in the United States, with only about 3,000 new cases being diagnosed each year. Interestingly, breast cancer treatment in the U.S is even higher than it is in the U.K.

I imagine either you or someone close to you has suffered through cancer, and if that's the case, you have my sympathy. Taking a step back and looking at cancer and its treatment over time in the Western world reveals a much more positive picture than you're painting here.

I like Olivia Newton-John's approach personally.

Oh? So things like herbal formulas, meditation and focusing on a vision of complete wellness? How about adding in some barbaric treatments like a partial mastectomy, chemotherapy and breast reconstruction? (in her own words)

Does it not strike you as odd that science, with all its knowledge and technology, can't even cure the common cold?

No, it doesn't. Because I spent as long as thirty seconds searching before I found an explanation that made sense and was backed up by reputable institutions and data. Here's one.

But I do believe that if there was a cure for the common cold, or even cancer, they would never let it out of the box.

People do believe strange things, I'll grant you.

The pharma companies are too busy making a fortune out of our illnesses to ever let us be cured of anything. "Treatments" are all they offer......preferably ones that go on indefinitely, ensuring that you become their customer for life.

I'm somewhat in agreement with you here. The present commercial model for pharmaceuticals isn't suitable for a large number of diseases. This article does a good job of suggesting solutions to this problem.

Don't get me started....

Too late!

There are so many examples online of those who were told by the medical professionals to go home and get their affairs in order because there was nothing more they could do for them....but thankfully they did not go home in defeat, waiting to die.....they tried alternative therapies and are still here to tell their story....don't expect the mainstream media to report any of them.

A question for you then: how can you be sure that the mainstream media didn't investigate these 'miracle alternative therapies' and find that - surprise! - the patient also received more conventional treatment? The susceptibility of people toward confirmation bias is very well documented. The fact that you favour non-mainstream sources speaks volumes to your own susceptibility here.

As I am not a YEC, I have no problem with the age of the earth or the universe.

Good for you.

The "days" according to Genesis could each have been periods of great length....even millions of years. The word "day" in Hebrew is not confined to a 24 hour period...it can mean periods of undetermined length.

Ah, yes. If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts. And presumably, they didn't have to be days of equal length (to account for the earth's relative youth compared to the universe), or even reported in the correct order (since fruit trees were apparently created the day before the Sun). This could go way, way off-topic, so I'll stop there.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Jemima in post #95]

As I am not a YEC, I have no problem with the age of the earth or the universe. I do not believe that, the Creator is confined to earth time any more than he would be confined to Jupiter's time or any other planet's time. Creation is not the product of 6/24 hour days. The Bible does not teach this, contrary to popular belief. The "days" according to Genesis could each have been periods of great length....even millions of years. The word "day" in Hebrew is not confined to a 24 hour period...it can mean periods of undetermined length.

The other factor to consider is that there was "evening and morning" which is not a 24 hour period. Evening to morning can vary in length depending of the season and your location. It simply indicates the end of one creative period and the beginning of a new one.

Good that your are not a YEC (some JWs are), but why do you think time intervals would be different at Jupiter than on Earth or any other planet? Relativity tells us that time can be perceived to be different for different observers in different inertial reference frames if they are moving relative to each other (time dilation), but it you're floating in Jupiter's atmosphere a minute (to you) would pass just like a minute here on Earth.

If a "day" is of indeterminate length, and "evening and morning" are not the time between sunset and sunrise (which are determined here on Earth by the rotation rate of the planet), then what defines a day? On Earth, the difference between evening and morning only varies by a tiny amount (compared to millions of years that you claim a biblical "day" could be) during a year due to the tilt of the Earth's axis relative to the plane of the ecliptic.

In your hemisphere, the longest time difference between sunset and sunrise is between the winter solstice in June, and the summer solstice in December (the opposite for us here in the northern hemisphere). This is mere hours, meaning there is no way the biblical "days" defined by the time span between "evening and morning" could be millions of years. There is no location in our solar system where that could be even remotely possible. Venus has the longest day (one rotation period) of the planets at 243 Earth days, which is negligible compared to millions of years.

Edited to add: The situation on Earth would have been even worse for the evening/morning time frame argument 4.6 billions years ago just after Earth formed ... a day was only about 4 hours long:

http://www.iea.usp.br/en/news/when-a-da ... four-hours

[Tcg]

I have a very strong opinion of the current medical establishment...

This is a debate sub-forum, not an opinion column. What matters here is verifiable evidence. Can you present any to support your claims about cancer?


Tcg

[POI]

Does Revelation 20:1-3 instruct that the reader should ignore the following Verses for now, until Satan is removed? --> (Matthew 7:7), (Matthew 21:22), (Mark 11:24), (John 14:13-14), (John 16:23). I'll answer here preemptively, NO.

I don't believe that Revelation 20:1-3 has taken place yet, but Revelation 12:7-12 has.

As for the scriptures you cited....all of them were addressed to those in the first century who were witnesses of the miracles and receivers of them. But as Paul warned, the apostolic times would end, and so would the miracles for now. "Faith, hope and love" would replace them until the Kingdom rules this earth.

You have provided no Scripture to support your believed assertion (paraphrased) --> "God will no longer answer the call to prayers of healing, until Satan is removed." Can you please provide Verses which tell the reader that my given Verses do not apply, for now, until Satan is removed?

I doubt His existence. Satan does not. Your argument fails. Why? I'm telling you that my doubt for His mere existence exists because is see Him not answering prayers. Like I keep saying, if I saw one prayer answered, which removed someone's CP, I would likely then conclude He exists.

I have tried to explain the situation but I'm apparently not getting the message across.....this is not the age of miracles. NO ONE is getting healed at this time because those things are connected to the promises of the Kingdom. When the Kingdom "comes" as Jesus said it would, then and only then will we see healing on a mass scale like it was done in the first century. (Revelation 21:3-4) The "former things" are still with us now, but when these things are "done away with", there will be no limit to their implementation.

You still have not provided Verse(s), which tells the reader God will no longer answer the call to healing prayers, until Satan is removed?

Your argument looks to be that God does not answer prayers in healing. And yet, you have not offered reason as to why God does not heal?

But I have several times...I can only ask that you go back and read my previous responses. This world was handed over to the devil to prove his claim that humans are better off without God and his rules.

Please provide them here, so we can once and for all see why all people, who pray for healing, are doing so in ignorance?

Well then, you might want to retract what you stated prior (i.e.) "Sorry to disappoint you, but our door to door ministry is only one avenue of our preaching work. (Matthew 10:11-14) It has been more successful than you realise and Bible studies are being conducted all over the world with many requests being answered from our website every day as people seek answers to their Bible questions. But we do not expect a 100% (success) rate"

Success would be measured by a climb in followers to "the right path" (i.e.) the JW position. Not a virtual stalemate, or a decline.

Do you know anything about how God liberated the Israelites from slavery in Egypt? If you do then you would know that even though these were his chosen people, only two individuals out of all the thousands who escaped, actually made it into the Promised Land......do you know why? Disobedience.
These saw God miracles first hand and still disobeyed him. The miracles were not enough, so even if your saw miracles today, like Israel did and they happened every day for 40 years, it would still not guarantee that you would love God enough to obey his rules.

Seriously, God is not so desperate for worshippers that he needs to give us what we personally want in order for him to bribe us into worshipping him.
He has something we need and it requires qualifications in order to obtain what he is offering us. Will granting wishes make him anything more than a Grand Magician? He is the eternal Sovereign of the Universe and if we qualify for citizenship in his Kingdom, then and only then, will we be granted the desires of our heart. Remaining faithful when all around you are not, isn't easy, but it has its rewards. (Psalm 145:16)

Okay, first, you need to provide the Verse(s) which tells the reader that healing prayers are all suspended (for now). And that all who currently petition God for prayers in healing are currently doing so in vain?

Once you have done that, I will then once again tell you that you are offering a differing argument than mine. Displayed miracles would reveal to such folks that He exists. Meaning, such folks would no longer be an atheist. Satan, and His followers, are not atheists Atheists are not in God's favor, right? Hence, they have NO chance of salvation, or to be elected for anything currently, right?

But according to you, God will eventually reveal Himself to all, in a way for which all can no longer deny His existence. Hence, no more atheism. Moving forward; some will follow, and some will not. But apparently, some will currently die as atheists/agnostics/skeptics. Again, according to you, God has to bring those folks back, to give them another shot. Seems unnecessary? Just reveal Himself to all, as they are first alive. But even more-so still, if God is truly omniscient, then He is merely going though the motions to see what He already knows will happen.

Seems odd that God would knowingly let the devil wreak havoc, while He sets back and watches for a while. It would be little different than owning a very violent dog. Instead of keeping that dog on a leash, you let ii loose into large crowds, and watch what you already know is going to happen. All-the-while, claiming you are all loving? It's a contradiction....

I have a simple solution.... If God answered prayer, many would then believe. Sure, many may not opt to follow, but at least the question of His mere existence would be more-so settled. You would still have the free will to reject Him, like Satan.

I don't think that God is subject to emotional blackmail......I couldn't respect him if he was. Saying to God "give me what I want or I won't worship you" is a rather ridiculous stance to take at this juncture especially. We have to qualify for him to reward us, because he will never alter his purpose to qualify for our worship. You cannot make demands of the Creator as if he somehow cannot do without us. He did without us for a very long time.

If we don't even believe that he exists, then why expect anything from him? He owes us nothing and has given us everything.....even life itself. Do you know the odds against any one of us even being born? They are astronomical!

You are again offering a different argument. Please see what I highlighted above, in bold. There would no longer be atheism. Some would still choose not to follow; like Satan and a third of the angels. Knowledge of His mere existence does not ruin your freewill choice to still reject Him. So why does He not offer proof of His existence for all mankind? Why is He waiting, but will later do it anyways? What is He waiting for, and why?

Please note what you stated above in bold. You state He has shown you that He does. Being shown could mean answered prayer, right? Being shown that God answers prayer would then no longer require 'faith' of His mere existence.

That is a rather odd way of looking at things IMO, but the answers to my prayers have been by way of scripture in advice on how to handle a problem....and circumstances that unfolded in answer to a prayer that led me in the right direction. I expect no miracles but I am grateful for God's direction when I come to making an important decision.....he has never steered me in the wrong direction. Human wisdom changes like the seasons, but God's direction never does.

If the Bible was a book of human wisdom, it would not be consistent throughout many generations....but its consistency proves that it is a book for all generations from the Creator. Like the instruction manual from a manufacturer.....who knows their product better than the one who made it?

Many claim they know He exists, because He has answered their prayers in healing. They are no longer atheists. But according to you, these believers are misdirected/misguided. God did not answer the call to their healing prayers. They believe, but their reason for belief is incorrect. God is actually currently ignoring healing prayers.

And in regards to 'faith', looks like the faith of the JW's are not very strong. This is evidence by the numbers of your congregation. They are not really going up. And as @brunumb stated; members are leaving at around the same rate as new converts. Does God not want as many to follow as possible? If He does, then answered prayer might be a great start?

Where do you get the idea that its about the numbers? As I mentioned before its about the "quality" not the "quantity"......God does not need us...we need him. He will not adjust to suit us...it is we who must adjust to suit him.....that is our choice.

His plans will go ahead with us or without us....I want to be included in them.

A few posts back, you asserted success in the JW ministry. If the number of converts are not really climbing, then how is this successful?

You have now apparently moved the goalposts. To my knowledge, you must be a JW, in some capacity, to even be a possible candidate for God's elect. The ones which do not profess to follow, like the JW, only look forward to annihilation apparently. Hence, your "quality verses quantity" argument would only refer to, at best, the ones within the JW organization. All the ones outside have no shot apparently. And since these numbers are not really rising too much, if at all, to claim success seems to be in direct violation of basic logic. You guys proselytize, right? Isn't the objective to bring new converts? If the converts are not really going up, then how is this considered successful?