God Says NO to Women Leashership

[POI]

According to the Bible, God is not okay with women leaders in church:

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1. Are the reasons given respectively, in Verses 13 and 14, acceptable by all you believers? If so, how come?

2. Does Verse 15 make sense? What if the woman is not fertile? Is this caveat already understood when reading these passages? What if the woman decides to become a nun, and wishes to remain untouched? Is this acceptable as well?

But the fact that the Bible mentions that Adam was formed first, indicates that the writer of this passage believed in a literal Adam and Eve. So much to square, to make the above given rationale "fit".

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #104]

Interviews don't seem to work.

They work, according to your example, 19% of the time. So saying they don't seem to work is wrong.
You make a good point here: " employers absolutely fail to pick good apples from bad" as this is just as much a result of the people picking, than the people they have from which to pick.
You seem to 'overlook' that potential in favor of your biasness.

Even when statistics have flaws, they are more predictive than nothing, and interviews are worse than nothing.

A ridiculous claim that's laughable. You've shown nothing to show this is 100% true past your own desire to discriminate. But hey, if it justifies your POV, go for it!

So there was another factor I mentioned that you may have overlooked: Employers, on average, have 100 applications for every position. If you assume interviews work, and they're picking the best, that means only a fifth of a percent of people are good enough for your average job. Not some top-level job; the average job. Not one percent; one percent are hired and only one out of five of those are successful.

To me this absolutely defaults to a common sense failure. More than a fifth of a percent of people are good enough for the average job.

But let's look at this as if it's correct. Only a fifth of a percent of people are good enough for your average job. 99.8% of people are absolutely incompetent (or at very least, only go for jobs which they are this incompetent at). What does this say for the possibility of interviews working? Remember, the person giving the interview also has a job and is overwhelmingly likely to be incompetent.

I'm the only one being unbiased here by admitting that bias works. I'm not saying it's morally permissible, but it does work. I'm the only one willing to examine this issue while everyone else just assumes that if something is morally wrong, like bias, it must also be stupid. That's simply not the case, and theft proves it. A thief, when he pushes a defenceless old man over and steals a wallet, has personally benefited. An action can be wrong and smart.

[OnceConvinced]

Peace to you,

Firstly, I think it would be good to notice, it is Paul who says “I do not permit”, not God. What Paul says is not necessary always what God says.

I was actually going to point out the same thing.

I would go as far as to say we should take everything Paul says with a grain of salt.

Test it against Christ.

Christ is the Truth. Not Paul.

The thing is you have no way of knowing what Christ wants or says. You can claim all you like he speaks to you directly, but I don't buy that at all.

Peace to you,
If Paul said something that contradicted Christ, then Paul would be wrong. Plain and simple, bible or no bible.

And of course Christ couldn't be wrong right? Everything he says has to be the truth.

I don't buy that either, even if you knew what it was he said, but you don't. At least you have no way of showing that you do.

[OnceConvinced]

And that is a huge problem, because people can taken anything in the bible and connect it up with some other part of the bible...

Sorry, I don’t think that is true.

Seriously? How long have you been on this website? 10 years! Surely you've seen it regularly? I certainly have. People taking one scripture and matching it up with another to get a different spin on it. And I've seen it outside of this website all my life, including my time in churches and bible study groups. Someone is always plucking out a scripture to back up a crazy belief. Just look at all the cults and versions of Christianity out there. They all look at the bible differently and pluck out scriptures to back up their teachings.

You've never seen any of that?? You deny that happens?

... It is not reasonable, good and loving to have an innocent man pay the price for the sins of others. It is not reasonable, good and loving to conduct human sacrfices.

And why do you think that is a Biblical teaching?

Ok, I will play your games.

Jesus died on the cross as a SACRIFICE for everybody's sins. An innocent, perfect, sinless man. This was ordained by God himself to happen. YOU are now saved because an innocent man paid the price for your abominations. Is that not a standard Christian teaching?

Ephesians 5:2: And walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 9:28: So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Do you not also claim that God is reasonable, good and loving because he provides a way for us to be saved? Is that not how he did it? Through human sacrifice?

[William]

Peace to you,

Firstly, I think it would be good to notice, it is Paul who says “I do not permit”, not God. What Paul says is not necessary always what God says.

I was actually going to point out the same thing.

I would go as far as to say we should take everything Paul says with a grain of salt.

Test it against Christ.

Christ is the Truth. Not Paul.

The thing is you have no way of knowing what Christ wants or says. You can claim all you like he speaks to you directly, but I don't buy that at all.

Peace to you,
If Paul said something that contradicted Christ, then Paul would be wrong. Plain and simple, bible or no bible.

And of course Christ couldn't be wrong right? Everything he says has to be the truth.

I don't buy that either, even if you knew what it was he said, but you don't. At least you have no way of showing that you do.

[1213]

And that is a huge problem, because people can taken anything in the bible and connect it up with some other part of the bible...

Sorry, I don’t think that is true.

Seriously? How long have you been on this website? 10 years! Surely you've seen it regularly? I certainly have. People taking one scripture and matching it up with another to get a different spin on it....

...You've never seen any of that?? You deny that happens?

Yes, people take scriptures and try to connect them, but it really does not work, if they are not really connectable. But, maybe I was not clear enough, I meant that even if people take scripture and try to connect them, they don’t really connect them, if there is no real connection. They may insist so and believe so, but it does not mean they truly are connected.

...Jesus died on the cross as a SACRIFICE for everybody's sins. An innocent, perfect, sinless man. This was ordained by God himself to happen. YOU are now saved because an innocent man paid the price for your abominations. Is that not a standard Christian teaching?

Ephesians 5:2: And walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 9:28: So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Do you not also claim that God is reasonable, good and loving because he provides a way for us to be saved? Is that not how he did it? Through human sacrifice?

Jesus forgave sins before his death, so, by what the Bible tells, his death was not required to forgive sins.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

But still, Jesus died because of us, that is why he can be seen as a sacrifice. But it is more like in how a soldier can sacrifice his life for his country by defending it.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Firstly, I think it would be good to notice, it is Paul who says “I do not permit”, not God. What Paul says is not necessary always what God says.

I was actually going to point out the same thing.

I would go as far as to say we should take everything Paul says with a grain of salt.

Of course.

I have taken most everything written with a grain of salt, until or unless my Lord confirms it to me. I know from Him to test all things against Him, and also to test against love.

Test it against Christ.

Christ is the Truth. Not Paul.

The thing is you have no way of knowing what Christ wants or says. You can claim all you like he speaks to you directly, but I don't buy that at all.

Well, that (the bold) is pretty much the most you can say on the matter, isn't it?

Even so, since the OP is referring to what is written... in what is written, Christ is the Truth. Not Paul. In what is written, God said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him." Obviously if something or someone contradicts Him - even in what is written - then that something or someone is wrong (or being misunderstood).

Peace to you,
If Paul said something that contradicted Christ, then Paul would be wrong. Plain and simple, bible or no bible.

And of course Christ couldn't be wrong right? Everything he says has to be the truth.

Yes.

He is the Truth, and truth is the language that He speaks (the sword that comes out of his mouth).

But it is not just because of those words, or because I say so (obviously). I hear truth in His words (written or otherwise). That truth resonates with me. The love does also, but when I started seeking, it was truth I was seeking. What was true about God? That is what I wanted to know, that is what I found in Christ.

He has never spoken false to me.

I don't buy that either, even if you knew what it was he said, but you don't. At least you have no way of showing that you do.

I'm not asking anyone to 'buy' anything, and I am certainly not 'selling' anything. I can only give my own testimony and witness on that matter, and if one wishes to know the truth of the matter, then one can turn to Christ.

On the topic though, I can share what Christ said (I have done so from what is written, from what He said about leaders and teachers, etc); I can attempt to reason, I can share some information about the times and context, as some food for thought. But what others choose to do with any of that is up to them.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Falling Light 101]

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1Ti 2:12  γυναικι women - δε also - διδασκειν teaching - ουκ not - επιτρεπω permitted ουδε neither - αυθεντειν an authentic - ανδρος male - αλλ unless - ειναι they be - εν in - ησυχια  quietness / calmness

1Ti 2:13  αδαμ Adam - γαρ for - πρωτος first - επλασθη was formed - ειτα then -
ευα  Shavah, = Eve.

1Ti 2:14  και And - αδαμ Adam - ουκ not - ηπατηθη deceived - η but - δε the -
γυνη woman - απατηθεισα was deceived - εν in - παραβασει the transgression -
γεγονεν  made

1Ti 2:15  σωθησεται will be saved - δε also - δια through - της the - τεκνογονιας child - bearing - εαν if - μεινωσιν they abide - εν in - πιστει faith - και and - αγαπη love - και and - αγιασμω sanctification - μετα with - σωφροσυνης  self-control.