Granted, here, we are to avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true, this isn't about the bible being the source, but rather or not it's entirely true, from beginning to end.
Are the words in the bible God's words, the words of God's follower(s) only, God speaking through his follower(s) or are they a mix?
If they ARE God's words, how do you know?
If they're NOT God's words, why all the emphasis on it at all (at least more so than other religious works)?
If they're a MIX of God's words and the words of his follower(s), how do you KNOW the difference? And how do you convince others you're right in your view? Or is that even necessary?
Is everything the bible says 100% true?
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #211213 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:06 pm
In that there is also one way to see is it from God.
I believe Bible is formed in the guidance of God, for example because if it would be from people, atheist would not have so many difficulties to understand it./i]
I have something I call the 'Theist - English dictionary'. What this means is that you have to see through the words they use in Christian apologetics to see what it is actually saying. What the above is actually saying is 'If atheists had Faith, they wouldn't ask questions about the Bible'. It implies that it's all explainable if only they understood, but in fact the Christians can't really explaining it; they only have Faith that (as they have been told) that it is explainable.
That's the purpose of these discussions. Let them try their explanations and see how wel they work.
Well, not when they're taught to do so. Christianity isn't about independent thought, it's about doing what you're told or else. Or else punishment in this world if not the next. But, yes, Unquestioning acceptance of the Bible as a starting -point is the requisite of Faith. It requires a challenge.
Sure seems that way it's a basic and very common apologetic, and true, in that when the Christians adapted the religion is was all changed to suit themselves, and those changes were put into Jesus' mouth. I may as well say it here: While a surprising amount of what Jesus did may be true, I am convinced that not a word (hardly) of what he is supposed to have said is what he really did say. It is all the beliefs and opinions of the Christian writers of the Gospels. This is just my view, of course.
I see your point, but not sure I agree with it in total. I'd be willing to bet good money christians could twist passages, contort word's definitions, pick-n-choose just enough to say 'Yeah, but it's not really about the resurrection. I'm not sure what they'd find, but with something based on belief and not facts, I'm sure one of the millions of disciples would be able to pull it off. And the sheep will follow along.
Yes, but my point is that If the resurrection is not true, then the foundational claim of Christianity collapses. Of course the Christians will battle to deny that it isn't true, but the fact remains - Christianity stand or falls on that one event.
Not sure one could counter the acceptance of the bible enough for anyone who believes to no longer believe, unless, that disbelief comes from within the individual themselves.
That's one of the major draws of christianity and the bible: no matter what people say, it all relies on belief. And one can believe in anything they want, no matter what./i]
if I get your point correctly, sure, non-believers probably won't see the need to justify their disbelief. But logically and rationally, such dismissal ought to have a better basis than 'I just don't believe it'. Though people have a personal right to do that.
The way I see it is like this; Christian apologists have spend decades if not centuries, slapping down any doubts or questions with apologetics designed to make the Bible look true and reliable. They are eager and willing to take the best view of the evidence, and even fiddling and misinforming if need be. Everything from Noah and the Flood to the '2nd census' validation of the Nativity. That is now dead and buried, and you may take my word for it. But as you say, the believers won't accept that.
Argument on the evidence
personal attacks
Cheek.
That doesn't matter. What matters is that those who are willing to doubt and question won't be fooled by the specious apologetics of Bible -apologists because the refutations are there and that believers won't accept them is irrelevant.
p.s Sorry -your quotes (which I put in italics) and my answers all seem to have gone italic. I'm not sure why that happens or how to correct it. Hope you can tell my reply from your quote.
In that there is also one way to see is it from God.
I believe Bible is formed in the guidance of God, for example because if it would be from people, atheist would not have so many difficulties to understand it./i]
I have something I call the 'Theist - English dictionary'. What this means is that you have to see through the words they use in Christian apologetics to see what it is actually saying. What the above is actually saying is 'If atheists had Faith, they wouldn't ask questions about the Bible'. It implies that it's all explainable if only they understood, but in fact the Christians can't really explaining it; they only have Faith that (as they have been told) that it is explainable.
That's the purpose of these discussions. Let them try their explanations and see how wel they work.
nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:18 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #16]
Well, not when they're taught to do so. Christianity isn't about independent thought, it's about doing what you're told or else.It is rather a puzzle that Christian apologists just suppose the Bible should be trusted just because it's there, while presumably they dismiss all the other Holy Books as not true.
Sure seems that waythe whole of the Christianity debate comes down to the Bible ('Who made everything, then?' is just a starting -point - of itself it doesn't validate any one religion) and rather the NT (for all that the believers so often reference the OT) because they so easily dismiss anything not so good in the OT as 'Jesus changed it all' (1).
I see your point, but not sure I agree with it in total. I'd be willing to bet good money christians could twist passages, contort word's definitions, pick-n-choose just enough to say 'Yeah, but it's not really about the resurrection. I'm not sure what they'd find, but with something based on belief and not facts, I'm sure one of the millions of disciples would be able to pull it off. And the sheep will follow along.if the resurrection is not true, then Christianity collapses, even if there WAS a real Jesus.
Not sure one could counter the acceptance of the bible enough for anyone who believes to no longer believe, unless, that disbelief comes from within the individual themselves.countering this unquestioning acceptance of the Bible. It should be questioned, but the doubters need good reasons to doubt it.
That's one of the major draws of christianity and the bible: no matter what people say, it all relies on belief. And one can believe in anything they want, no matter what.
Well, not when they're taught to do so. Christianity isn't about independent thought, it's about doing what you're told or else. Or else punishment in this world if not the next. But, yes, Unquestioning acceptance of the Bible as a starting -point is the requisite of Faith. It requires a challenge.
Sure seems that way it's a basic and very common apologetic, and true, in that when the Christians adapted the religion is was all changed to suit themselves, and those changes were put into Jesus' mouth. I may as well say it here: While a surprising amount of what Jesus did may be true, I am convinced that not a word (hardly) of what he is supposed to have said is what he really did say. It is all the beliefs and opinions of the Christian writers of the Gospels. This is just my view, of course.
I see your point, but not sure I agree with it in total. I'd be willing to bet good money christians could twist passages, contort word's definitions, pick-n-choose just enough to say 'Yeah, but it's not really about the resurrection. I'm not sure what they'd find, but with something based on belief and not facts, I'm sure one of the millions of disciples would be able to pull it off. And the sheep will follow along.
Yes, but my point is that If the resurrection is not true, then the foundational claim of Christianity collapses. Of course the Christians will battle to deny that it isn't true, but the fact remains - Christianity stand or falls on that one event.
Not sure one could counter the acceptance of the bible enough for anyone who believes to no longer believe, unless, that disbelief comes from within the individual themselves.
That's one of the major draws of christianity and the bible: no matter what people say, it all relies on belief. And one can believe in anything they want, no matter what./i]
if I get your point correctly, sure, non-believers probably won't see the need to justify their disbelief. But logically and rationally, such dismissal ought to have a better basis than 'I just don't believe it'. Though people have a personal right to do that.
The way I see it is like this; Christian apologists have spend decades if not centuries, slapping down any doubts or questions with apologetics designed to make the Bible look true and reliable. They are eager and willing to take the best view of the evidence, and even fiddling and misinforming if need be. Everything from Noah and the Flood to the '2nd census' validation of the Nativity. That is now dead and buried, and you may take my word for it. But as you say, the believers won't accept that.
Argument on the evidence
personal attacks
Cheek.
That doesn't matter. What matters is that those who are willing to doubt and question won't be fooled by the specious apologetics of Bible -apologists because the refutations are there and that believers won't accept them is irrelevant.
p.s Sorry -your quotes (which I put in italics) and my answers all seem to have gone italic. I'm not sure why that happens or how to correct it. Hope you can tell my reply from your quote.
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #22There seems to be, yet again, a mis-read on your part.1213 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:11 pmOk, if it is enough to have a god, then they all are similar. I think all people have something as their god. So, all are the same.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:43 am ...Islam. Judaism. Many native Americans have their own religious beliefs, traditions and deities. Greeks had their god (which may not count as similar but do count as religious texts outside the christian religion). Hinduism, Buddhism, both have religious texts like christianity does.
You can't honestly say there's not other religions outside the christian religion that aren't similar, much less simply exist.
They are similar (particularly Islam and Judaism, as they are monotheistic and, many times reference the same deity). Nowhere did I say they were the same, as you seemed to 'indicate' in the above bolded section. Please understand that and don't place words in responses that aren't there, as this isn't the bible. This will make responses more understandable.
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #23Please explain why do you think so. Why would for example a golden calf that some kept as their God be as good as the Bible God?
Please tell, why?
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #24When you make up a god, it's to fit one's own chosen agenda. The christian god seems to be a mixed bag. Sometimes he'd leveling cities other times he's sending his son/self to die for the sins that were apparent in the city he leveled earlier. Bi-polar much?brunumb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:00 pmI suppose one fictional god is as good as any other. Pick one you like and stick with it. If someone needs a security blanket, or a crutch to lean on that helps them not to do bad things, then I say go for it. Just don't preach it as the truth and try to convince others to follow in the same footsteps is all I ask.
And we can ask them to not preach truth and try to convince others, but we have to understand it's their mission from their god. Yes it would be nice for them to 'live and let live', but the only way they can 'win soldiers' is to procreate their chosen agenda and try to guilt others into believing. Something I never saw their christ do in the new testament. I suppose this 'mission' is just another side of their bi-polar deity?
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #26You are pretty much asking the same question here as you did in the Bible Inerrancy thread that you posted. SMH.nobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:38 pm Granted, here, we are to avoid using the Bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true, this isn't about the bible being the source, but rather or not it's entirely true, from beginning to end.
Are the words in the bible God's words, the words of God's follower(s) only, God speaking through his follower(s) or are they a mix?
It is literally the same question, but in a different way.
Inspired word of God. A few of God's chosen people were so inspired by him that they decided to write about him.
Kind of the same way people write biographies about other people today. Same kind of thing.
Because we believe they are good (reliable/trustworthy)second hand sources as to what God did, and will do...and also what God wants us to do.nobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:38 pm If they're NOT God's words, why all the emphasis on it at all (at least more so than other religious works)?
Questions are unwarranted based on the first two answers.nobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:38 pm If they're a MIX of God's words and the words of his follower(s), how do you KNOW the difference? And how do you convince others you're right in your view? Or is that even necessary?
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #27[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #26]
Then I'll ignore your post here, and read it there. Thanks for allowing me to know not to waste my time reading it.You are pretty much asking the same question here as you did in the Bible Inerrancy thread that you posted. SMH.
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #28No prob. My good deed for the daynobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:37 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #26]
Then I'll ignore your post here, and read it there. Thanks for allowing me to know not to waste my time reading it.You are pretty much asking the same question here as you did in the Bible Inerrancy thread that you posted. SMH.
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Re: Is everything the bible says 100% true?
Post #29Everyone should strive to do at least one/day!We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:42 pmNo prob. My good deed for the daynobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:37 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #26]
Then I'll ignore your post here, and read it there. Thanks for allowing me to know not to waste my time reading it.You are pretty much asking the same question here as you did in the Bible Inerrancy thread that you posted. SMH.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!