144,000 to rule as kings with Jesus

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 39 here:

...
Only select few (144,000) will be given the special privilege to rule as kings with Jesus
...

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the quoted claim is true and factual.

Remember, the bible ain't considered authoritative in this section of the site.

[tam]

Peace to you Joey, and all!

From Post 39 here:

...
Only select few (144,000) will be given the special privilege to rule as kings with Jesus
...

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the quoted claim is true and factual.

Well the statement isn't actually true.

The only means I know of to confirm what IS true though would be Christ (Christ sent that Revelation to John, and from my experience, the meaning of the content of that book must be revealed - I sure can't figure it out on my own; poetry and symbolism were two of my most disliked sections in high school.)

**


On the subject of virginity (from some of the comments I saw):

The 144 000 are not virgins as in never married/had sexual union. That cannot be true, or the 12 apostles chosen by Christ could not reign with Him, since at least some of them were married. (1Corinth 9:5) The 144 000 are virgins because they are not in UNION with any except their promised husband: Christ. (They are also not only male; but both male and female.) The 'women' that they did not defile themselves with (from the same book of Revelation) are Babylon the Great(er) and her many daughters (sects and denominations mainly in "Christendom') < - note that these are all described as 'women'. Those are the women that the 144 000 did not defile themselves with.

It is about spiritual virginity, not fleshly virginity. In the same way that one can be an adulteress by bring promised to one husband (Christ), but instead of remaining faithful, that one had union with "kings of the earth" (As Babylon the Great and her daughters have done). This is a pretty common analogy in the OT as well, where Jerusalem and Samaria are described as being adulteresses (Oholah and Oholibah, Ezekiel 23), defiling themselves with their lovers.

I wonder how that specific number was chosen by the author rather than some other. What is the significance of 144,000?

Well it wasn't chosen by the author. The author heard that number (while he was in the spirit). The significance is explained in the passage. The 144 000 is made up of 12000 from each of the 12 listed tribes of Israel (Rev 7:4-8). It is a literal number of physical Israel (not just Jews who make up two tribes, but all twelve tribes). Based on the love and promise made to Abraham, so that God has ensured that there will be at least 144 000 from Israel who reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years.

All Israel will be saved. But 144 000 places are reserved for Israel, to reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom.


That being said:

Going all the way back to the statement from the OP that is under question, the 144 000 are only a portion of those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years. The Great Crowd from Rev 7:9 is made up of people from EVERY tribe, people, nation and language. The Great Crowd (including the 144 000) are all those who reign with Christ for a thousand years in His Kingdom, as kings and priests (these are His brothers, His Bride, His Body: Christians - those who truly are Christian).


**

There are also many others who are invited into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom, who are also blessed by the Father and given eternal life: these ones are non-Christian.




Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

So now I'm a little confused as to what you're objecting to here.

Where did you see me voice an objection? I cannot see that I have thus far made any objection but if you see one please use the quotation feature and post where you see me objecting to something.


Thanks,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Stating a belief is founded in faith is surely a hallmark of Christianity - I'm wondering why you seem to be avoiding that....

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

I note you consider it your belief.

[JehovahsWitness]

It does have the side effect of showing just how little truth there is in "The Truth".

Interesting comment: What is this "truth" you are referring to ? How do you assess whether there is a little or a lot of it to be found in any given area ... and more importantly ....

- please offer some means to confirm your claim to being able to identify this "truth" is factual.

[nobspeople]

From Post 39 here:

...
Only select few (144,000) will be given the special privilege to rule as kings with Jesus
...

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the quoted claim is true and factual.

Remember, the bible ain't considered authoritative in this section of the site.

That's in interestingly, even number. Why not 144,203? Or 143,999? No. It's 144,000. No ambiguity there.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to tam in post #12]

Well it wasn't chosen by the author. The author heard that number (while he was in the spirit). The significance is explained in the passage. The 144 000 is made up of 12000 from each of the 12 listed tribes of Israel (Rev 7:4-8). It is a literal number of physical Israel (not just Jews who make up two tribes, but all twelve tribes). Based on the love and promise made to Abraham, so that God has ensured that there will be at least 144 000 from Israel who reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years.

I see ... so it is another play on the important number 12 (this time multiplied by 1000, which also seems to be an important number if the postulated reign of kings and priests would also last 1000 years). Humans always like nice, round numbers and that was apparently true nearly 2000 years ago when these stories were crafted.

[TRANSPONDER]

It does have the side effect of showing just how little truth there is in "The Truth".

Interesting comment: What is this "truth" you are referring to ? How do you assess whether there is a little or a lot of it to be found in any given area ... and more importantly ....

- please offer some means to confirm your claim to being able to identify this "truth" is factual.

I would suppose (because this matter has come up before on other Boards) that 'the truth' has two usages

the truth - what actually is so, no matter what we may believe, or want to believe.

"The Truth" (identified by capital 'T'): Christian Faith.

How we assess which is which, - critical thinking, as you referred to in another thread.

[Diagoras]

Peace to you Joey, and all!

From Post 39 here:

...
Only select few (144,000) will be given the special privilege to rule as kings with Jesus
...

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the quoted claim is true and factual.

Well the statement isn't actually true.

The only means I know of to confirm what IS true though would be Christ (Christ sent that Revelation to John, and from my experience, the meaning of the content of that book must be revealed - I sure can't figure it out on my own; poetry and symbolism were two of my most disliked sections in high school.)

<bolding mine>

Are you claiming that the meaning of Revelation can be revealed - to you - when you directly ask Christ, but not when you solely read the Bible?

I'm wondering whether you could ask him about a verse in the following chapter (Revelation 8):

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

How much of this is purely allegorical (a sort of celestial smack-talk?), and how much is straight-up fact? And does Christ answer you in a way that differs from what someone might purely imagine he replies?

[JoeyKnothead]

Peace to you Joey, and all!

From Post 39 here:

...
Only select few (144,000) will be given the special privilege to rule as kings with Jesus
...

For debate:

Please offer some means to confirm the quoted claim is true and factual.

Well the statement isn't actually true.

The only means I know of to confirm what IS true though would be Christ (Christ sent that Revelation to John, and from my experience, the meaning of the content of that book must be revealed - I sure can't figure it out on my own; poetry and symbolism were two of my most disliked sections in high school.)

**


On the subject of virginity (from some of the comments I saw):

The 144 000 are not virgins as in never married/had sexual union. That cannot be true, or the 12 apostles chosen by Christ could not reign with Him, since at least some of them were married. (1Corinth 9:5) The 144 000 are virgins because they are not in UNION with any except their promised husband: Christ. (They are also not only male; but both male and female.) The 'women' that they did not defile themselves with (from the same book of Revelation) are Babylon the Great(er) and her many daughters (sects and denominations mainly in "Christendom') < - note that these are all described as 'women'. Those are the women that the 144 000 did not defile themselves with.

It is about spiritual virginity, not fleshly virginity. In the same way that one can be an adulteress by bring promised to one husband (Christ), but instead of remaining faithful, that one had union with "kings of the earth" (As Babylon the Great and her daughters have done). This is a pretty common analogy in the OT as well, where Jerusalem and Samaria are described as being adulteresses (Oholah and Oholibah, Ezekiel 23), defiling themselves with their lovers.

I wonder how that specific number was chosen by the author rather than some other. What is the significance of 144,000?

Well it wasn't chosen by the author. The author heard that number (while he was in the spirit). The significance is explained in the passage. The 144 000 is made up of 12000 from each of the 12 listed tribes of Israel (Rev 7:4-8). It is a literal number of physical Israel (not just Jews who make up two tribes, but all twelve tribes). Based on the love and promise made to Abraham, so that God has ensured that there will be at least 144 000 from Israel who reign as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years.

All Israel will be saved. But 144 000 places are reserved for Israel, to reign as king-priests with Christ in His Kingdom.

That being said:

Going all the way back to the statement from the OP that is under question, the 144 000 are only a portion of those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years. The Great Crowd from Rev 7:9 is made up of people from EVERY tribe, people, nation and language. The Great Crowd (including the 144 000) are all those who reign with Christ for a thousand years in His Kingdom, as kings and priests (these are His brothers, His Bride, His Body: Christians - those who truly are Christian).

There are also many others who are invited into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom, who are also blessed by the Father and given eternal life: these ones are non-Christian.

Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And peace to you as well.

I preciate the schooling, but don't see how it gets us any closer to the truth.

How can we confirm more than 144,000 will get there?

[JoeyKnothead]

It does have the side effect of showing just how little truth there is in "The Truth".

Interesting comment: What is this "truth" you are referring to ?

The "truth" of there being 144,000 who're aheading to Heaven, and associated claims, thus...

1. There's a Heaven
2. Folks'll go there
3. But only this bunch of 144,000

How do you assess whether there is a little or a lot of it to be found in any given area ...

I don't presuppose to know what evidence a claimant might have in support of their claims. Lacking such, it'd be premature to propose what methodology might best help in this regard.

and more importantly ....

- please offer some means to confirm your claim to being able to identify this "truth" is factual.

As before, until evidence is present by the claimant, we're all lost as a cow at a square dance regarding the truth of their claims.

But I've personally wiped my own fourth point of contact, and I've seen me a can of Shinola.