Fear of hell or hope of heaven?

[nobspeople]

What do you think brings people to god more: the fear of an eternal hell or the hope of eternal heaven?

Cite examples for your opinion if you can.

[brunumb]

LOL....and of course you could never be the victim of control.....? Could you...?

Thankfully not religious control. I escaped from that in my early teens and it's encouraging to see the growing trend of people today shedding the shackles of religion.

[TRANSPONDER]

I rather think that the believers do indeed create an image of God as what they want to believe. And it's easy enough to dismiss anyone who has a different idea of God as just making it up in their own heads while they themselves (of course) are the ones who are Really communicating with God and have it right. I see no reason to believe that any of them are in touch with anything but the voice in the head that many of us have (including me) but some at least realise is just their own mind they're talking to.

So really, if there is a Creator to whom we must account, then deniers are going to have to come to grips with God's existence and realize that by their own choices, they have disqualified themselves from becoming citizens in his Kingdom, which will rule humans on earth, according to the scriptures.

So what makes me believe what you and many others cannot? Its an interesting question, isn't it?

It explains the differences in opinion and doctrine - as you have noted. But you differ from me in thinking that some have it right and are talking to God and the others are talking to themselves. I reckon they are ALL talking to themselves.

And you have the right to make that assumption if you believe it is correct. What if you are wrong though? What if God had "drawn" those in whom he finds an agreeable heart and has left the rest to come to their own conclusions and devices? I believe we will all know sooner rather than later. What have unbelievers got to look forward to compared to believers?

I have heard some people say that living in a world of believers would be their version of hell. I think God already knows that and will not force them to live such a life. For atheists, permanent death its what they expect anyway.....be careful what you wish for eh?

I need only add that an assurance that you may believe that you really are talking to God is not going to persuade me, any more than quoting Bible verses about God talking to the faithful would, if you were to do that.

Its not up to me to persuade you believe anything.....that is the beauty of the Bible's message.....like "casting your bread upon the waters", we never know where it will end up. The message is not forced on anyone, and no coercion is applied....its all about whether the heart responds to the message...or not. God issues an invitation to whomever he pleases....some will refuse to accept the invitation, others will take it with both grateful hands, knowing what it means for the future.

You may then say (looking a couple of moves ahead ) that we shall have to agree to differ on that. Indeed we could but that leaves me with nothing persuasive presented to make a case for a genuine experience of God, a validation of the Bible (however one interprets it) or any good reason to believe Christianity. Which is the basis of the non -believers case. Which you will see is left with a sound case or non - belief.

What is "a genuine experience of God" exactly? How does one 'validate the Bible'? What would be a 'good reason to believe Christianity'?
You see, the various churches would give you all kinds of 'experiences', 'validation' and 'reasons to believe'....but none of them persuaded me. I left the church system a long time ago and have never looked back. I do not see God in Christendom.....not a trace in fact.

My experience of God has been non-miraculous, and through study I have validated the Bible's narrative as historical and logical, giving me a good reason to believe and to become a Christian. I have no other explanation for why I believe and you don't, except for God's hand in the matter.

Which is not what the thread was about anyway. It was about whether Christianity is a matter of fear or not. With hellthreat it is hard for a non - believer to credit that fear doesn't have some part to play (indeed, deconverts have confided that - as believers - they were terrified that they weren't good enough to avoid God's displeasure). But for the Believer who does not believe in Hell, I can credit that it is just love. Which they would see as its' own reward.

If one has to be scared into worshipping God with threats of eternal torture then they have the wrong god. The true God has never done anything to anyone without just cause, and as the Creator of life, he has the authority to also take it away. But there is no hell of torment.....when the wicked or the God-deniers die, they simply won't wake up. But resurrection is assured for those who have kept the faith, in spite of the world going in the opposite direction.

Which is what I addressed above: I suspect that they are in love with a mental image of themselves. I am rather fond of myself, or at least am rather understanding, but I don't go as far as adoring myself.

My mental image is not of myself at all, but of one I aspire to be more like.....I am a flawed human like all the rest, but my God has no flaws, and when you examine his purpose for us and the earth, and see why it must be fulfilled, it all makes perfect sense. I love God more than I love any other living thing....to know him is to love him.....so many have never bothered to get to know him.

Excellent gutsy response. 'You are not daunted by words and have courteous speech' (LoR) However, the Bible is flawed, wrong and full of holes as we are currently discussing.

And if you are not here to persuade, others are. And that you are convinced that you are talking to God (and the others are not) is not persuasive, because, to be blunt, atheism takes the trick and the believers can only say they weren't playing anyway. We are. We are playing hardball. We take it amiss that so many are being fed misinformation by the religion, at all levels, whether creationist - literalism or cherry picking 'some things are just metaphor' - believers.

This is something that (logically) I don't get (on an emotional level I do - they are just convinced they are right) that the believers concede they are flawed as well as being sinners by nature even if they are perfect in their actions. That quite apart from possibly getting the denomination or even the religion wrong. And I have been assured that there are no guarantees that anyone can rely on of being 'forgiven' and allowed into heaven. If indeed you believe in heaven. Some don't.

I don't understand WHY believers aren't terrified of falling short unless they don't believe in heaven as hell. And then I can't understand why they are so utterly confident that they are right when the evidence shows they are quite wrong. Again, it doesn't matter that they say they don't care if they are refuted and they aren't trying to convert anyone. That's irrelevant to us (non -believers) what is relevant is that the believers can make no valid argument and can only say they still believe, no matter what. That's not a 'win' for them. It's denying that they lost.

What it comes down to (looking way beyond the discussion) is hearts and minds - not you or I but others who may be interested in who has the best argument. That's why I'm here.

[otseng]

LOL....and of course you could never be the victim of control.....? Could you...?

I think Santa Claus is the least of your worries. Do you know what perception management is? Perhaps you should look it up.

Welcome to the forum. Though this post is not necessarily in violation of the rules, I'd like to let you know the primary principle of this forum is civility. This means respect for other people and avoiding making any personal comments. Please take note of the rules and abide by both the spirit and the letter of the rules. Thanks.

[Jemima]

LOL....and of course you could never be the victim of control.....? Could you...?

I think Santa Claus is the least of your worries. Do you know what perception management is? Perhaps you should look it up.

Welcome to the forum. Though this post is not necessarily in violation of the rules, I'd like to let you know the primary principle of this forum is civility. This means respect for other people and avoiding making any personal comments. Please take note of the rules and abide by both the spirit and the letter of the rules. Thanks.

My apologies, I am at present feeling my way and meant no disrespect. I thought I was simply responding to an allegation. I will be mindful in future not to make it personal.....got it. Thank you. This site has a nice feel to it.

[Jemima]

Thankfully not religious control. I escaped from that in my early teens and it's encouraging to see the growing trend of people today shedding the shackles of religion.

I am always saddened by the suggestion that religious indoctrination has made someone want to get a divorce from God instead of from the church that misrepresented him.

But having said that, from my own personal perspective, I too shed the shackles of religious misinformation, preferring to just stick with God and the Bible.
I knew he was still there, and just as Jesus led his disciples out of a corrupted religious system back in the first century, I believe that he has done the same today, when he is about to make his second coming manifest. He gave us the signs to show us what to look for and I see them all right now. (Matthew 24:3-14) These are momentous times as we see so many unprecedented things taking place.

"Religion" today has indeed become somewhat of a joke, but their beliefs and unchristian conduct doesn't make God go away.....Jesus warned us about the "wheat and the weeds"...do you remember that parable and what it means?

[brunumb]

But having said that, from my own personal perspective, I too shed the shackles of religious misinformation, preferring to just stick with God and the Bible.

For me, the Bible went first and not long after, so did God. I am an 'evolutionist'. By that I mean that I have studied evolution (even taught it a little) and understand what it is all about and find that the evidence compels me to regard it as being correct. Putting aside the attractive poetry in the Bible, I regard most of what it contains as absurd and written with an obvious religious agenda. I do not find the teachings of Jesus particularly special and regard Confucius as possibly a better role model for human behaviour. One can be a good person without belief in God or a religion and as far as I am concerned that is all that matters.

[TRANSPONDER]

Thankfully not religious control. I escaped from that in my early teens and it's encouraging to see the growing trend of people today shedding the shackles of religion.

I am always saddened by the suggestion that religious indoctrination has made someone want to get a divorce from God instead of from the church that misrepresented him.

But having said that, from my own personal perspective, I too shed the shackles of religious misinformation, preferring to just stick with God and the Bible.
I knew he was still there, and just as Jesus led his disciples out of a corrupted religious system back in the first century, I believe that he has done the same today, when he is about to make his second coming manifest. He gave us the signs to show us what to look for and I see them all right now. (Matthew 24:3-14) These are momentous times as we see so many unprecedented things taking place.

"Religion" today has indeed become somewhat of a joke, but their beliefs and unchristian conduct doesn't make God go away.....Jesus warned us about the "wheat and the weeds"...do you remember that parable and what it means?

In discussions like this it is a bad habot of us atheists to assume that a theist is also going to sign up to a lot of other stuff. If they say (or imply) that they believe in God, Jesus and the Bible, then we assume they belong to the Christian church. It's not an unreasonable assumption.

If you say that you don't but are a Christian that believes in God, Jesus and the Bible but not organized religion, we will be corrected accordingly. That's certainly one step in the right direction.

I said before that I think an experience of 'God' is just experience of one's own mind. Like I said, I commune with my own mind all the time. That there are aspirations to be better is something that our minds do or can do (some don't ). In other words just us trying to be better people. That does not make it a god.

[Jemima]

In discussions like this it is a bad habot of us atheists to assume that a theist is also going to sign up to a lot of other stuff. If they say (or imply) that they believe in God, Jesus and the Bible, then we assume they belong to the Christian church. It's not an unreasonable assumption.

I got jack of churches in my 20's but I never forfeited belief in God, nor did I ever lose respect for the Bible. I just never found a church that wanted to implement what the Bible said. And I tried many at the time. All gave me the same empty feeling.

For example, when the law of God said "thou shalt not kill" and Jesus taught us to "love our enemies" and his apostles taught that we must "never return evil for evil"....it seemed glaringly obvious to me that the churches (of all denominations) were up to their necks in politics and sanctioning the bloodshed of the political wars of their respective nations. This resulted in Catholics killing Catholics and Protestants killing Protestants in the two World Wars of last century, when that was in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. And even in the wars that have raged since, the clergy are there basically blessing what these soldiers are doing. They are counting on these clergymen to salve their consciences because they know deep down that killing a fellow human is wrong. If they were preaching what Christ taught then they would have encouraged them to put down their weapons. Wars solve nothing. They just cost precious lives.

If Christ taught us to be "no part of the world", I am sure that he meant not to let the world dictate our actions....let God do that instead.
But I see how religion divides people rather than to bring them together. True Christianity unites people, it never divides them along any lines.

To me, Christianity is not a label....it is something lived 24/7 for your whole life.

If you say that you don't but are a Christian that believes in God, Jesus and the Bible but not organized religion, we will be corrected accordingly. That's certainly one step in the right direction.

"Organized religion" in general I considered to be organized chaos. None of them believed the same things and it was a virtual free for all about what scripture meant....it was anyone's guess. I knew that Jesus never conducted himself that way, nor did he teach his disciples that you can believe whatever you wish.
"Grace" was used as an excuse to sin your head off in the mistaken belief that Jesus had already saved you.....but I knew that was false too. There was just too much that wasn't right, so I virtually gave up trying to find God in all that rabble. I despaired of ever finding the Christians that I knew must exist, because the first Christians were a united body....all grouped in congregations, who all believed the same truth. No one was free to add or subtract anything.

So when you say "organized religion" I automatically think of what I left....not the body of Christians I found some years later....or should I say, they found me.....doing the very work that Jesus had assigned them to do. Not only did they devote their spare time to spreading the Bible's message, but they actually had no dissension in their ranks, and met regularly for Bible discussion, not just some weekly ritual that was an empty duty. I had seen this too often, people going to church and picking up their Christianity at the door, and leaving it there on their way out. I just could not do that. I wanted a faith that was real, and founded only on the Bible. I am now a part of a global brotherhood of some 8.5 million members, found in every nation on earth. We all believe the same things, and will not become part of a world where immorality and bloodshed are the 'norm'.

I said before that I think an experience of 'God' is just experience of one's own mind. Like I said, I commune with my own mind all the time. That there are aspirations to be better is something that our minds do or can do (some don't ). In other words just us trying to be better people. That does not make it a god.

I like Jesus' approach. He offered his message to people but did not force it. He used no guilt or coercion, but simply allowed the individual to respond to his teachings as their heart impelled them. He never chased after anyone....he still doesn't.

I see the world has many good humanitarians, all trying to make the world a better place, but at the same time I see many becoming disillusioned at the magnitude of the problems....no matter how many they help, there are thousands more to take their place. I realized many years ago that man is his own worst enemy. Man cannot solve the problems because man is the problem. Do human governments or institutions have the answers as we are brought closer and closer to extinction here? How many ways has man thought up to ruin his only home?

I believe that only God can fix this mess and that is what he has outlined for us in the Bible. He identifies the problem and offers us his solution on a "take it or leave it" basis. I decided to take it.

[TRANSPONDER]

In discussions like this it is a bad habot of us atheists to assume that a theist is also going to sign up to a lot of other stuff. If they say (or imply) that they believe in God, Jesus and the Bible, then we assume they belong to the Christian church. It's not an unreasonable assumption.

I got jack of churches in my 20's but I never forfeited belief in God, nor did I ever lose respect for the Bible. I just never found a church that wanted to implement what the Bible said. And I tried many at the time. All gave me the same empty feeling.

For example, when the law of God said "thou shalt not kill" and Jesus taught us to "love our enemies" and his apostles taught that we must "never return evil for evil"....it seemed glaringly obvious to me that the churches (of all denominations) were up to their necks in politics and sanctioning the bloodshed of the political wars of their respective nations. This resulted in Catholics killing Catholics and Protestants killing Protestants in the two World Wars of last century, when that was in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. And even in the wars that have raged since, the clergy are there basically blessing what these soldiers are doing. They are counting on these clergymen to salve their consciences because they know deep down that killing a fellow human is wrong. If they were preaching what Christ taught then they would have encouraged them to put down their weapons. Wars solve nothing. They just cost precious lives.

If Christ taught us to be "no part of the world", I am sure that he meant not to let the world dictate our actions....let God do that instead.
But I see how religion divides people rather than to bring them together. True Christianity unites people, it never divides them along any lines.

To me, Christianity is not a label....it is something lived 24/7 for your whole life.

If you say that you don't but are a Christian that believes in God, Jesus and the Bible but not organized religion, we will be corrected accordingly. That's certainly one step in the right direction.

"Organized religion" in general I considered to be organized chaos. None of them believed the same things and it was a virtual free for all about what scripture meant....it was anyone's guess. I knew that Jesus never conducted himself that way, nor did he teach his disciples that you can believe whatever you wish.
"Grace" was used as an excuse to sin your head off in the mistaken belief that Jesus had already saved you.....but I knew that was false too. There was just too much that wasn't right, so I virtually gave up trying to find God in all that rabble. I despaired of ever finding the Christians that I knew must exist, because the first Christians were a united body....all grouped in congregations, who all believed the same truth. No one was free to add or subtract anything.

So when you say "organized religion" I automatically think of what I left....not the body of Christians I found some years later....or should I say, they found me.....doing the very work that Jesus had assigned them to do. Not only did they devote their spare time to spreading the Bible's message, but they actually had no dissension in their ranks, and met regularly for Bible discussion, not just some weekly ritual that was an empty duty. I had seen this too often, people going to church and picking up their Christianity at the door, and leaving it there on their way out. I just could not do that. I wanted a faith that was real, and founded only on the Bible. I am now a part of a global brotherhood of some 8.5 million members, found in every nation on earth. We all believe the same things, and will not become part of a world where immorality and bloodshed are the 'norm'.

I said before that I think an experience of 'God' is just experience of one's own mind. Like I said, I commune with my own mind all the time. That there are aspirations to be better is something that our minds do or can do (some don't ). In other words just us trying to be better people. That does not make it a god.

I like Jesus' approach. He offered his message to people but did not force it. He used no guilt or coercion, but simply allowed the individual to respond to his teachings as their heart impelled them. He never chased after anyone....he still doesn't.

I see the world has many good humanitarians, all trying to make the world a better place, but at the same time I see many becoming disillusioned at the magnitude of the problems....no matter how many they help, there are thousands more to take their place. I realized many years ago that man is his own worst enemy. Man cannot solve the problems because man is the problem. Do human governments or institutions have the answers as we are brought closer and closer to extinction here? How many ways has man thought up to ruin his only home?

I believe that only God can fix this mess and that is what he has outlined for us in the Bible. He identifies the problem and offers us his solution on a "take it or leave it" basis. I decided to take it.

Very good post. Or I like it anyway. This is something I often came across. Believers might be pretty disgusted with organised religion and drop it in favour of what we call 'irreligious theism'. Which might be what some call 'agnosticism' (belief in a creator who intervenes but is not interested in man -made, or man, corrupted, organized religions), or it might be 'Deism' (belief in a creator that doesn't intervene) or it could be someone who believes in the religion but not the commercial enterprise called Christianity.

I won't go into what's wrong with organized religion - it might make an interesting discussion. But I get entirely where you are coming from.

I happen to think that love of Jesusgod (where it isn't love of an organization) is love of the entity in one's own head, and that the Bible is incorrect, untrue and very much open to question even where it purports to give good advice.

There might have been a real Jesus, but he was not like in the Bible, never said anything that is in there (though he might have done a lot of the things it says, particularly dying), was not a divinity and did not rise from death (though he might have woken up).

You won't agree. You are quite free to disagree. I am here to argue why I think as I do.

And now let's spellcheck...

[Tcg]

I am always saddened by the suggestion that religious indoctrination has made someone want to get a divorce from God instead of from the church that misrepresented him.

Until someone can present verifiable evidence that any representation of God matches reality, it is impossible to determine which churches are or are not misrepresenting God. The same is true of individuals. Until verifiable evidence is presented, there is no way to know that any individual view of God is accurate.

As far as divorcing God, I've never heard anyone who has been through the experience describe it that way. Children, for instance, who come to lack belief in the tooth fairy would never describe it as a divorce.


Tcg