Without heaven, is christ even worth it?

[nobspeople]

Recently, someone said their christ is the cornerstone of their faith, not their fear of hell. I don't believe that for one iota. Why? Because without the fear of hell, christ has little to offer.

Let's examine what he offers*:

Eternal life. There's differing views of what that entails. Some say it's getting to meet their lost loved ones again. Others say is worshipping god for, well, ever. Others say their lost pets won't be there, which doesn't sound like heaven at all. And no one can grasp eternity. So the jury's out on that.

Peace. That duck just won't hunt. Christians were some of the most hated people throughout history. Even today, they tend to get their noses up in the business, legally speaking, of people that don't want it. And, because of this, they're not well liked across the planet. Not to mention the constant need to seek forgiveness for doing something that god made so natural to you. Then there's the doubt about one's eternity, which every christian has or has had at one point in their lives. Additionally, many 'christians' say it's not easy trying to be righteous all the time (though they may not be true 'christians' as well).

Money. Nope. 'The goal of getting rich is a foolish goal. You can't take it with you (I Timothy 6:7). ' Though there are some christians that claim it's the will of jesus for you to be rich, wealthy, prosperous, et al (I know I know, they're not real christians according to many poorer christians - jealous much?).

So while there are no promises outside of eternal life (for those that accept him, or those that he grants it - seems to vary depending on which 'christian' is asked) there's nothing christ offers that can't be found elsewhere.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

* Of course this is generally speaking, there are exceptions.

[JehovahsWitness]

I hate to break it to you, but if Lucifer thinks that morally, humans are walking garbage, pretty well right, at least most of the time.

Your opinion is duly noted. In my opinion the God of the bible does not view his creation as "garbage" so forgive me if I choose not to see humanity as you seem (and Satan is reported) to. Only garbage loves garbage; I dont believe God is garbage and we humans are not garbage to God.

JEREMIAH 31:2, 3
This is what Jehovah says ... "I have loved you with an everlasting love. That is why I have drawn you to me with loyal love"

EXODUS 34:6
Jehovah was passing before him and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth

DEUTERONOMY 7:9
Jehovah your God is the true God, the faithful God, keeping his covenant and loyal love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

More scriptures that peak about God's love
viewtopic.php?p=1085266#p1085266


JW


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses



RELATED POSTS

Is God loving ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 8#p1003798

[JehovahsWitness]

As to the right to rule, this is one of the things we have to clearly define before we ask if God has it. ... As to what it is, particularly how it comes about, I have to admit I have no idea.

If you dont knkw what itis how do you feel qualified to write a comment about it?

[Purple Knight]

I hate to break it to you, but if Lucifer thinks that morally, humans are walking garbage, pretty well right, at least most of the time.

Your opinion is duly noted. The God of the bible does not view his creation as "garbage" so forgive me if I choose not to see humanity as you seem to and Satan is reported to. Only garbage loves garbage; God is not garbage and we humans are not garbage to God.

You probably see humanity that way because you're a member of a tight-knit community that follows what I well admit are rules intended to facilitate harmony rather than destruction. People can argue about whether the rules go too far but the point is, the rules do have a point. When the rules aren't there and you're looking at what people really are, when they can get away with it, it's tough to see it the way you do.

In your own belief structure, Lucifer has control of the world. But no one can point him out. I don't think you believe he's skulking around in the material plane wearing a cloak and rewarding people for behaving badly with giant pots of gold. Who gives him that power, then? People. People don't need any pots of gold to behave badly. The devil is given too much credit, especially if he's real.

As to the right to rule, this is one of the things we have to clearly define before we ask if God has it. ... As to what it is, particularly how it comes about, I have to admit I have no idea.

If you dont knkw what itis how do you feel qualified to write a comment about it?

To be fair I referenced others who do know about it.

[JehovahsWitness]

To be fair I referenced others who do know about it.

Okay well if any of those that know what it is turn up I'll pick their brains I cannot debate with someone that isnt here. Meanwhile there's just you here and you just told me you dont even know what it is.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #48]

You would have to define what "great lives" means.

If someone claims they're having a 'great life', we can only take them for their word. These 'great lives' come from all aspects of life, religion independent.

If one is on the "way"/path to "destruction", I would be doubtful that their lives are that much to harp about.

You'd have to define "way"/path to "destruction" as well as how that reflects in their lives. But we can all doubt what one says and claims.

There are many politicians, who I would say are on their way to destruction, in the here and now, yet they have many followers who worship the dirt they walk on.

Many would indicate there are those that aren't. But that's an altogether different topic

I am thinking the number of their followers are probably in the decline.

Praise Jebus! - Homer Simpson. Seriously though, that seems to be a lot of what I've seen (though there are always stats with exceptions available). What's causing the decline might be a bigger issue.

Thanks again for the clarification.

[nobspeople]

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

Skip any references to his divinity (and He made only a few obscure references to that) and He talked a lot of sense.

Probably part of the reason why Ghandi said “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #48]

You would have to define what "great lives" means.

If someone claims they're having a 'great life', we can only take them for their word. These 'great lives' come from all aspects of life, religion independent.

If one is on the "way"/path to "destruction", I would be doubtful that their lives are that much to harp about.

You'd have to define "way"/path to "destruction" as well as how that reflects in their lives. But we can all doubt what one says and claims.

There are many politicians, who I would say are on their way to destruction, in the here and now, yet they have many followers who worship the dirt they walk on.

Many would indicate there are those that aren't. But that's an altogether different topic

I am thinking the number of their followers are probably in the decline.

Praise Jebus! - Homer Simpson. Seriously though, that seems to be a lot of what I've seen (though there are always stats with exceptions available). What's causing the decline might be a bigger issue.

Thanks again for the clarification.

The "path"/"way" to "destruction", is to follow the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:13-23). The foremost false prophet, the false prophet Paul, taught his followers that "we" would not all "sleep"/die. Of course, Paul is dead, as well as all of the followers he was speaking too. The false gospel of grace/cross, in which the Law is nailed to the cross, is the gospel of lawlessness/wickedness, for which those committing "lawlessness", will suffer the consequences of being thrown out or cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 7:23) & (Matthew 13:40-50). They may talk a good game, but they have no foundation, are are blown around by the wind. Apparently the "leaders", the goats, or the fat eaters, will bear the brunt of the punishment, but the sheep face judgment regardless (Ezekiel 34:16-20). A nice old Catholic lady down the street from me just died. She suffered dementia, but died of cancer. That is to say, that her "shepherds", the goats, could not heal her, nor could they heal themselves (Ezekiel 34:1-5). She suffered because of the path she was led, but the "fat" shepherds will be fed judgment (Ezekiel 34:16). "Destruction" for the followers of of the mythical Mohammad would often entail blowing themselves up to kill some Kuffar, for some false hope of a better life. They trade one miserable life for death, which might be considered a win except for the collateral damage. People either wake up, or follow the other lemmings over the cliff edge.

[Purple Knight]

To be fair I referenced others who do know about it.

Okay well if any of those that know what it is turn up I'll pick their brains I cannot debate with someone that isnt here. Meanwhile there's just you here and you just told me you don't even know what it is.

No I don't, so if you were to tell me, I would probably just go with your opinion on what the right to rule is. Do you agree or disagree with the historical figures that the right to rule can go away?