Without heaven, is christ even worth it?

[nobspeople]

Recently, someone said their christ is the cornerstone of their faith, not their fear of hell. I don't believe that for one iota. Why? Because without the fear of hell, christ has little to offer.

Let's examine what he offers*:

Eternal life. There's differing views of what that entails. Some say it's getting to meet their lost loved ones again. Others say is worshipping god for, well, ever. Others say their lost pets won't be there, which doesn't sound like heaven at all. And no one can grasp eternity. So the jury's out on that.

Peace. That duck just won't hunt. Christians were some of the most hated people throughout history. Even today, they tend to get their noses up in the business, legally speaking, of people that don't want it. And, because of this, they're not well liked across the planet. Not to mention the constant need to seek forgiveness for doing something that god made so natural to you. Then there's the doubt about one's eternity, which every christian has or has had at one point in their lives. Additionally, many 'christians' say it's not easy trying to be righteous all the time (though they may not be true 'christians' as well).

Money. Nope. 'The goal of getting rich is a foolish goal. You can't take it with you (I Timothy 6:7). ' Though there are some christians that claim it's the will of jesus for you to be rich, wealthy, prosperous, et al (I know I know, they're not real christians according to many poorer christians - jealous much?).

So while there are no promises outside of eternal life (for those that accept him, or those that he grants it - seems to vary depending on which 'christian' is asked) there's nothing christ offers that can't be found elsewhere.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

* Of course this is generally speaking, there are exceptions.

[TRANSPONDER]

Could someone please explain to me how being a Christian (or is it specifically a Jehovah's Witness?) vindicates God's name, whatever that even means. It strikes me as being as worthless an endeavor as worship.

Or indeed (as I think was a point made) that the Bible tells us what God did and what Jesus said.Not to persuade and save anyone, primarily, but 'validate His name'. Whatever that is supposed to mean. If the Bible is wrong (textually, prophetically, logically and scientifically) I don't see that validates God or anything about Christianity.

[nobspeople]

Recently, someone said their christ is the cornerstone of their faith, not their fear of hell. I don't believe that for one iota. Why? Because without the fear of hell, christ has little to offer.
....

Obviously, it depends on what person thinks is valuable. I think Jesus offers wisdom, truth, love, righteousness and peace of mind. I think those are extremely valuable.

Not sure about righteousness, but other than that, sure.
But many things can bring these things, not just jesus.

[nobspeople]

Could someone please explain to me how being a Christian (or is it specifically a Jehovah's Witness?) vindicates God's name, whatever that even means. It strikes me as being as worthless an endeavor as worship.

A lot of worship of the christian god is worthless. Unless, of course, you're the god that demands to be kissed up to all the time. Even still, what's he gonna' do with all that kiss up?

[1213]

...However, to those who are not persuaded that the mere act of thinking that something is true that has no real support for it is a good thing if it just makes people believe they know The Truth (and why wouldn't they just pick their own religion or cult?), what, without the bait of heaven and the threat of hell is going to be Christianity's leverage to persuade doubters?

In my experience the teachings of Jesus are really practical in everyday life, at least they have been for me and I think the Kingdom of God is already possible to find on earth. It is not for me waiting some future thing. And I think fear of hell, or hope for heaven is not good reason to follow Jesus. It would be better that people learn what Jesus told and then have a chance to think, do they want to follow Jesus, because of the teachings. Going for the reward, or trying to avoid the hell is not good reasons and by what I have understood, it probably doesn’t lead to heaven, because eternal life is promised for righteous.

It is interesting that Jesus said:

….But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

How many have done that and found that on earth? Maybe many would not really want to find that.

[TRANSPONDER]

...However, to those who are not persuaded that the mere act of thinking that something is true that has no real support for it is a good thing if it just makes people believe they know The Truth (and why wouldn't they just pick their own religion or cult?), what, without the bait of heaven and the threat of hell is going to be Christianity's leverage to persuade doubters?

In my experience the teachings of Jesus are really practical in everyday life, at least they have been for me and I think the Kingdom of God is already possible to find on earth. It is not for me waiting some future thing. And I think fear of hell, or hope for heaven is not good reason to follow Jesus. It would be better that people learn what Jesus told and then have a chance to think, do they want to follow Jesus, because of the teachings. Going for the reward, or trying to avoid the hell is not good reasons and by what I have understood, it probably doesn’t lead to heaven, because eternal life is promised for righteous.

It is interesting that Jesus said:

….But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

How many have done that and found that on earth? Maybe many would not really want to find that.

If those words are written by persons of the time (and I believe they are) it would not be surprising if some of the suggestions were good ones. Others are less practical as Christians know as they ignore them. Particularly the one about doing good (like working) rather than observing the 'Sabbath' and of course giving all you have to the poor. Because then you'd be poor and they'd have to give it all back.

Again I suggest that following the good things in the Bible (suitably interpreted) is not sufficient to make hocking your discrimination to the Church an attractive option to doubters, when the promise of heaven and threat of hell has been removed.

[brunumb]

In my experience the teachings of Jesus are really practical in everyday life, at least they have been for me and I think the Kingdom of God is already possible to find on earth.

The teachings of Confucius are every bit as good and he even showed far greater respect for the family than hippy Jesus. And that was all without the added nonsense of kingdoms of heaven and such.

[2ndpillar2]

Biblically Christ came so that humanity could have a relationship with our Creator. He fully reflected His Father's qualities and revealed the fullness of Gods purpose.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

Yes.

Why ...?

Because biblically Jesus' primary mission was not the salvation of mankind, it is the vindication of his Fathers name. Our personal salvation is secondary to that.

MATTHEW 6:9

Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified

JW

And what is the "Fathers" name? In English. And what does that mean?

[2ndpillar2]

Recently, someone said their christ is the cornerstone of their faith, not their fear of hell. I don't believe that for one iota. Why? Because without the fear of hell, christ has little to offer.

Let's examine what he offers*:

Eternal life. There's differing views of what that entails. Some say it's getting to meet their lost loved ones again. Others say is worshipping god for, well, ever. Others say their lost pets won't be there, which doesn't sound like heaven at all. And no one can grasp eternity. So the jury's out on that.

Peace. That duck just won't hunt. Christians were some of the most hated people throughout history. Even today, they tend to get their noses up in the business, legally speaking, of people that don't want it. And, because of this, they're not well liked across the planet. Not to mention the constant need to seek forgiveness for doing something that god made so natural to you. Then there's the doubt about one's eternity, which every christian has or has had at one point in their lives. Additionally, many 'christians' say it's not easy trying to be righteous all the time (though they may not be true 'christians' as well).

Money. Nope. 'The goal of getting rich is a foolish goal. You can't take it with you (I Timothy 6:7). ' Though there are some christians that claim it's the will of jesus for you to be rich, wealthy, prosperous, et al (I know I know, they're not real christians according to many poorer christians - jealous much?).

So while there are no promises outside of eternal life (for those that accept him, or those that he grants it - seems to vary depending on which 'christian' is asked) there's nothing christ offers that can't be found elsewhere.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

* Of course this is generally speaking, there are exceptions.

The normal life of the "many", is a life of hell on earth. That is kind of why jihadist are quick to blow themselves up. A false hope is better than their life on earth. And what are your godless hopes? Do you hope to be the poorest on your block, who is at war with your neighbors, who believe differently than yourself? And what is a "true" "Christian"? If you want to debate, possibly you should define your terms. If your life revolves around your pet, and you think that there will be no pets in heaven, then maybe you should find out where the millennium is, the kingdom of God, to be played out at, and how the animals will actually act during that period. Will the lion actually sit down with the lamb, and will they eat grass? Or do you like how things are, with the lion eating the young, and the hyenas eating their prey alive, and the wicked abusing their pets. You sound cut off, and a little confused. Do you have a cat or a dog?

[Purple Knight]

IMO, people who only believe in a certain moral structure solely for an external reward might as well be tossing Jews in ovens because Hitler said he'd give them a piece of candy.

I also don't think anyone on this forum fits that bill.

[Purple Knight]

Its not a matter of number of verses, its a matter of the weight of the point. The central issue introduced in Eden was not whether God could save humanity but Gods reputation and His way of doing things (see Genesis 3:5) . Jesus understood the import of setting the recod straight and how his actions would effect God's name.

What I get from this (Do I have you wrong here?) is that this is part of the whole "Man's Way being tested" thing that started with the apple and ends when Man shows himself incapable of creating a functional world without using God's Way.

If so I'm not sure why Jesus was needed except to save Man from himself. Man is doing a great job of drowning the whole world in his figurative excrement and proving he isn't fit to rule.