Without heaven, is christ even worth it?

[nobspeople]

Recently, someone said their christ is the cornerstone of their faith, not their fear of hell. I don't believe that for one iota. Why? Because without the fear of hell, christ has little to offer.

Let's examine what he offers*:

Eternal life. There's differing views of what that entails. Some say it's getting to meet their lost loved ones again. Others say is worshipping god for, well, ever. Others say their lost pets won't be there, which doesn't sound like heaven at all. And no one can grasp eternity. So the jury's out on that.

Peace. That duck just won't hunt. Christians were some of the most hated people throughout history. Even today, they tend to get their noses up in the business, legally speaking, of people that don't want it. And, because of this, they're not well liked across the planet. Not to mention the constant need to seek forgiveness for doing something that god made so natural to you. Then there's the doubt about one's eternity, which every christian has or has had at one point in their lives. Additionally, many 'christians' say it's not easy trying to be righteous all the time (though they may not be true 'christians' as well).

Money. Nope. 'The goal of getting rich is a foolish goal. You can't take it with you (I Timothy 6:7). ' Though there are some christians that claim it's the will of jesus for you to be rich, wealthy, prosperous, et al (I know I know, they're not real christians according to many poorer christians - jealous much?).

So while there are no promises outside of eternal life (for those that accept him, or those that he grants it - seems to vary depending on which 'christian' is asked) there's nothing christ offers that can't be found elsewhere.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

* Of course this is generally speaking, there are exceptions.

[Purple Knight]

I doubt that God could care less about what they say about him.

I'm not sure. We're not supposed to care about when we're slandered but I've questioned that all my life. It may be that I'm just ego-justifying, but if someone says that the duck in front of us is actually an alligator, we should run away from it, and we run into the mouth of an actual alligator, you can see that lies have serious negative consequences. If our Reason is worth anything at all, this is the rule, not the exception.

And if someone says I killed a man, and I didn't, that doesn't only have consequences to me, but to the victim, to justice, and to the next victim when they jail me and forget about the real criminal. If it's not okay that I ask that the real criminal be punished instead of myself, if that's selfish or wrong, then justice has no value.

I believe in truth. I believe truth has value, both simply because it is truth, and because logic can't reliably output truth without inputting truth.

So when I see someone seemingly egotistically defending themselves, and they catch flak for it, I will defend them if they're in the right, even if it seems petty, and yes, even if it's God.

I've learnt to do this because too often, a teller of truth will be cast as a petty self-defender by an actual liar, who seeks to harm by use of lies. Well yes, you were right, the liar and manipulator will say, but look at how focused you are on it, look at how much it matters to you, so very petty. The instigator will strike first, claim a benefit, ridicule any reprisal, and then pretend who struck first never mattered, only burying the hatchet matters. And he will chip away at his enemy, claiming victory after victory, always taking a little more until his enemy has nothing, also always seeming to be the good guy who wants peace. He has the entire world blinded to his tactics. And I will defend the petty self-defender over the liar, the instigator, the manipulator, because the truth actually matters to me.

Proving what the truth is, is also important. I still don't know if I value it as highly as lives, so my opinion of the story of Job is not quite as rosy, but proving the truth true is at least worth something other than to be forgotten about because caring about it is somehow petty.

I do not assume to know what Satan thinks, only what he is reported to have actually said: Satan contradicted what God. In response to God's warning that if Adam and Eve sinned they would die, Satan said {quote} "You certainly will not die...". Indirectly then he was saying God was either mistaken or a liar - both of which undermined confidence in Him.

Wouldn't that be solved as soon as Eve died of natural causes? Unless Lucifer is going to say that Eve is still alive to this day, he was wrong about that and God was right. That's on the books already.

[JehovahsWitness]

I do not assume to know what Satan thinks, only what he is reported to have actually said: Satan contradicted what God. In response to God's warning that if Adam and Eve sinned they would die, Satan said {quote} "You certainly will not die...". Indirectly then he was saying God was either mistaken or a liar - both of which undermined confidence in Him.

Wouldn't that be solved as soon as Eve died of natural causes? Unless Lucifer is going to say that Eve is still alive to this day, he was wrong about that and God was right. That's on the books already.

If that were the only issue, then yes the death of Adam and Eve would settle that. However, I am of the opinion ( based on what I deduce from the text) that Satan raised other issues which needed time to be settled, notably God's right to rule and human integrity.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

ORIGINAL SIN , HUMAN SUFFERING and ... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

[TRANSPONDER]

I doubt that God could care less about what they say about him.

I'm not sure. We're not supposed to care about when we're slandered but I've questioned that all my life. It may be that I'm just ego-justifying, but if someone says that the duck in front of us is actually an alligator, we should run away from it, and we run into the mouth of an actual alligator, you can see that lies have serious negative consequences. If our Reason is worth anything at all, this is the rule, not the exception.

And if someone says I killed a man, and I didn't, that doesn't only have consequences to me, but to the victim, to justice, and to the next victim when they jail me and forget about the real criminal. If it's not okay that I ask that the real criminal be punished instead of myself, if that's selfish or wrong, then justice has no value.

I believe in truth. I believe truth has value, both simply because it is truth, and because logic can't reliably output truth without inputting truth.

So when I see someone seemingly egotistically defending themselves, and they catch flak for it, I will defend them if they're in the right, even if it seems petty, and yes, even if it's God.

I've learnt to do this because too often, a teller of truth will be cast as a petty self-defender by an actual liar, who seeks to harm by use of lies. Well yes, you were right, the liar and manipulator will say, but look at how focused you are on it, look at how much it matters to you, so very petty. The instigator will strike first, claim a benefit, ridicule any reprisal, and then pretend who struck first never mattered, only burying the hatchet matters. And he will chip away at his enemy, claiming victory after victory, always taking a little more until his enemy has nothing, also always seeming to be the good guy who wants peace. He has the entire world blinded to his tactics. And I will defend the petty self-defender over the liar, the instigator, the manipulator, because the truth actually matters to me.

Proving what the truth is, is also important. I still don't know if I value it as highly as lives, so my opinion of the story of Job is not quite as rosy, but proving the truth true is at least worth something other than to be forgotten about because caring about it is somehow petty.

I don't know at all what that has to do with whether God would care so much about people not honouring him that his plan using Jesus would be a priority over saving people. After all, Jesus was sent to the Jews who honoured God's name and the problem (ostensibly) was they their way of behaving didn't do it justice. Effectively Jesus was sent to save them (and Jerusalem) if they accepted him. Salvation was the principal aim of the mission. To bring people to repentance, not to vindicate God's name. They honoured it regularly in Temple and synagogue.

As to he rest, we all have to deal with those we debate with and roll with it when they get shirty and dish out accusations of bias and the like. Water off a duck's back. The validity of the case is what counts whether I am partial to my beliefs or not and I commend the same approach to yourself.

I do not assume to know what Satan thinks, only what he is reported to have actually said: Satan contradicted what God. In response to God's warning that if Adam and Eve sinned they would die, Satan said {quote} "You certainly will not die...". Indirectly then he was saying God was either mistaken or a liar - both of which undermined confidence in Him.

Wouldn't that be solved as soon as Eve died of natural causes? Unless Lucifer is going to say that Eve is still alive to this day, he was wrong about that and God was right. That's on the books already.
[/quote]

This isn't a post to me. I just didn't snip it out of respect to you both.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #28]

The normal life of the "many", is a life of hell on earth.

Can you elaborate on this and how you know this is true? Likewise, why "many" as opposed to many?

And what is a "true" "Christian"?

A question that's been asked many times in the past, to which we get differing answers.

If you want to debate, possibly you should define your terms.

I've found, on here, terms tend to be 'irrelevant' - at least to the point of debate with many people. Words and terms mean different things to different people here. No one can hope to be able to include all those terms and definitions, not to mention individual interpretation.

Will the lion actually sit down with the lamb, and will they eat grass?

Case in point here. This seems to be a literal interpretation while others would consider this more symbolic. How can one hope to legitimately discuss things when one sees something as literal and another as metaphorical?

[otseng]

You sound cut off, and a little confused.

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[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #28]

The normal life of the "many", is a life of hell on earth.

Can you elaborate on this and how you know this is true? Likewise, why "many" as opposed to many?

And what is a "true" "Christian"?

A question that's been asked many times in the past, to which we get differing answers.

If you want to debate, possibly you should define your terms.

I've found, on here, terms tend to be 'irrelevant' - at least to the point of debate with many people. Words and terms mean different things to different people here. No one can hope to be able to include all those terms and definitions, not to mention individual interpretation.

Will the lion actually sit down with the lamb, and will they eat grass?

Case in point here. This seems to be a literal interpretation while others would consider this more symbolic. How can one hope to legitimately discuss things when one sees something as literal and another as metaphorical?

The "many" refers to the "many" per Matthew 7:13, which refers to those who follow the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:15-23), who are on the "path" to "destruction". As for those living in hell on earth, look to your drug use in the U.S., with respect to those who need depilating drugs to get through the day. People turn into mini monsters without their dose of caffeine.
As for lions sitting with the lambs, look to YouTube for the crazy animal friendships now being recorded. You can even find lions hugging people. As for lions eating grass, if you watch your cat or dog, they often eat grass. It contains fiber, chlorophyll, and can also control parasites, and toxins.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #46]

The "many" refers to the "many" per Matthew 7:13, which refers to those who follow the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:15-23), who are on the "path" to "destruction".

Thanks for the clarification. What about "path" and "destruction"?

s for those living in hell on earth, look to your drug use in the U.S., with respect to those who need depilating drugs to get through the day. People turn into mini monsters without their dose of caffeine.

Sure, but there are also those who have great lives. Surely, they aren't living in hell on earth? Or are they? If so, why do you think that?

As for lions sitting with the lambs, look to YouTube for the crazy animal friendships now being recorded.

To be fair, you can find just about anything on youtube. These 'animal friendships' aren't anything new, you're just now seeing them. Anyone who's been around animals long enough can attest to that. So, it seems, what you're doing is finding things to justify your POV. Which is fine, of course, so long as it's made apparent and not masqueraded as 'mystical' or 'end of the world' mumbo jumbo.

As for lions eating grass, if you watch your cat or dog, they often eat grass. It contains fiber, chlorophyll, and can also control parasites, and toxins.

It's natural medication, in a sense. Animals aren't the mindless bodies that many people think they are. They know much more than many give them credit for.
You can also find cows eating chicks, horses eating ducklings, etc. It's called nature, as disturbing as it may seem to some.
But when someone quotes the bible and uses the 'lions laying with lamb' motif, it's typically to symbolize something.

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #46]

The "many" refers to the "many" per Matthew 7:13, which refers to those who follow the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:15-23), who are on the "path" to "destruction".

Thanks for the clarification. What about "path" and "destruction"?

s for those living in hell on earth, look to your drug use in the U.S., with respect to those who need depilating drugs to get through the day. People turn into mini monsters without their dose of caffeine.

Sure, but there are also those who have great lives. Surely, they aren't living in hell on earth? Or are they? If so, why do you think that?

As for lions sitting with the lambs, look to YouTube for the crazy animal friendships now being recorded.

To be fair, you can find just about anything on youtube. These 'animal friendships' aren't anything new, you're just now seeing them. Anyone who's been around animals long enough can attest to that. So, it seems, what you're doing is finding things to justify your POV. Which is fine, of course, so long as it's made apparent and not masqueraded as 'mystical' or 'end of the world' mumbo jumbo.

As for lions eating grass, if you watch your cat or dog, they often eat grass. It contains fiber, chlorophyll, and can also control parasites, and toxins.

It's natural medication, in a sense. Animals aren't the mindless bodies that many people think they are. They know much more than many give them credit for.
You can also find cows eating chicks, horses eating ducklings, etc. It's called nature, as disturbing as it may seem to some.
But when someone quotes the bible and uses the 'lions laying with lamb' motif, it's typically to symbolize something.

Matthew 7:13 defines the "path"/"way" as the path that those who are headed for "destruction", are traveling. You would have to define what "great lives" means. If one is on the "way"/path to "destruction", I would be doubtful that their lives are that much to harp about. There are many politicians, who I would say are on their way to destruction, in the here and now, yet they have many followers who worship the dirt they walk on. Although looking forward, I am thinking the number of their followers are probably in the decline. As for false prophets and their followers, the false prophets are dead, and their followers are soon to be dead, that is the way of the law of nature. Their problem is that they thought they wouldn't die, or if they did die, they would be rewarded with 72 dates/raisons, and be in heaven. In actuality, they are in their graves, or on the "way"/"path".

[Bradskii]

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

Skip any references to his divinity (and He made only a few obscure references to that) and He talked a lot of sense.

[Purple Knight]

Wouldn't that be solved as soon as Eve died of natural causes? Unless Lucifer is going to say that Eve is still alive to this day, he was wrong about that and God was right. That's on the books already.

If that were the only issue, then yes the death of Adam and Eve would settle that. However Satan raised other issues which needed time to be settled, notably God's right to rule and human integrity.

I hate to break it to you, but if Lucifer thinks that morally, humans are walking garbage, he's pretty well right, at least most of the time.

As to the right to rule, this is one of the things we have to clearly define before we ask if God has it. It's a tough issue. The Bible seems to affirm it exists since it even tells people to follow the law.

As to what it is, particularly how it comes about, I have to admit I have no idea. These men have some idea. They say that if certain conditions are met, the right to rule goes away. They know something I don't about what the right to rule is and how it arises or fails to arise or even up and vanishes like a fart in the wind.

If a People is led to destruction by the instrument of governmental power, then the rebellion on the part of each and every member of such a nation is not only a right but a duty.
- Adolf Hitler

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
- Thomas Jefferson

It's odd that good and evil should have the exact same thing to say about the right to rule, and furthermore that it should stink of nonsense to me. If there is a right to rule, I should think, it wouldn't matter how the ruler treats his subjects, because that right to rule would stand against any objections of the subjects.

If there were two people trapped on an island, one a spiteful bully who would make life a misery for the other if he were to rule, and another who would be fair and just even to the one he rules over, I think both these figures in history would say, well, see there, that is exactly what I mean, and it is by the second fellow's fairness that the right to rule has arisen, and if there is a fight over it I hope he wins, because that would be justice.

I don't know at all what that has to do with whether God would care so much about people not honouring him that his plan using Jesus would be a priority over saving people.

Apologies first that I always snip. I don't like to expand posts. And I shouldn't ramble so much. My point was just that I think defending one's good name is actually okay. If someone calls me a liar when I'm not, I have a right to defend myself, I think, and so would any sentient being, including God. If he's right, he's justified in trying to prove himself so. If one person blatantly lies about another, and the second person makes a mess trying to clear his name, the responsibility for the mess falls on the head of the liar, at least, in my thinking.