Without heaven, is christ even worth it?

[nobspeople]

Recently, someone said their christ is the cornerstone of their faith, not their fear of hell. I don't believe that for one iota. Why? Because without the fear of hell, christ has little to offer.

Let's examine what he offers*:

Eternal life. There's differing views of what that entails. Some say it's getting to meet their lost loved ones again. Others say is worshipping god for, well, ever. Others say their lost pets won't be there, which doesn't sound like heaven at all. And no one can grasp eternity. So the jury's out on that.

Peace. That duck just won't hunt. Christians were some of the most hated people throughout history. Even today, they tend to get their noses up in the business, legally speaking, of people that don't want it. And, because of this, they're not well liked across the planet. Not to mention the constant need to seek forgiveness for doing something that god made so natural to you. Then there's the doubt about one's eternity, which every christian has or has had at one point in their lives. Additionally, many 'christians' say it's not easy trying to be righteous all the time (though they may not be true 'christians' as well).

Money. Nope. 'The goal of getting rich is a foolish goal. You can't take it with you (I Timothy 6:7). ' Though there are some christians that claim it's the will of jesus for you to be rich, wealthy, prosperous, et al (I know I know, they're not real christians according to many poorer christians - jealous much?).

So while there are no promises outside of eternal life (for those that accept him, or those that he grants it - seems to vary depending on which 'christian' is asked) there's nothing christ offers that can't be found elsewhere.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

* Of course this is generally speaking, there are exceptions.

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically Christ came so that humanity could have a relationship with our Creator. He fully reflected His Father's qualities and revealed the fullness of Gods purpose.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

Yes.

Why ...?

Because biblically Jesus' primary mission was not the salvation of mankind, it is the vindication of his Fathers name. Our personal salvation is secondary to that.

MATTHEW 6:9

Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified

JW

[nobspeople]

Biblically Christ came so that humanity could have a relationship with our Creator. He fully reflected His Father's qualities and revealed the fullness of Gods purpose.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

Yes.

Why ...?

Because biblically Jesus' primary mission was not the salvation of mankind, it is the vindication of his Fathers name. Our personal salvation is secondary to that.

MATTHEW 6:9

Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified

JW

That's all happy puppies and ice cream, but how is that worth it?
He's blows his father's name and you're saved. Great. But, as the post said, aside from heaven (being saved et al) how is it worth it?
In your own words, not the words of long dead men.

[TRANSPONDER]

Biblically Christ came so that humanity could have a relationship with our Creator. He fully reflected His Father's qualities and revealed the fullness of Gods purpose.

So if heaven were removed from the picture, is following christ even worth it?
Why or why not?

Yes.

Why ...?

Because biblically Jesus' primary mission was not the salvation of mankind, it is the vindication of his Fathers name. Our personal salvation is secondary to that.

MATTHEW 6:9

Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified

JW

The idea of the OP is really 'without heaven, is Christ (Christiaity) even worth it' (for us)?

It is irrelevant what God gets out of it. The point is, what does it have to offer us? What is the stick and carrot without heaven and hell? What's the motivation?

Well, if Christianity rules the roost, there's plenty. But if it doesn't, there's none.

Does it offer a better way of life? We may doubt it.

Without heaven and most particularly, without hellthreat, Christianity has nothing to sell.

[JehovahsWitness]

... but how is that worth it?

Its worth it if the most important thing is achieved regardless of the cost; and biblically the most important thing is not our personal salvation but that Gods name is vindicated. If nobody got to heaven it would STILL , in my opinion, be worth it.

̂The idea of the OP is really 'without heaven, is Christ (Christiaity) even worth it' (for us)?

Well I dont know who the "us" is... I can only speak for myself as one'of Jehovah's Witnesses, and for me the answer is .... yes, without heaven, Christ (Christiaity) is indeed worth it.

It is irrelevant what God gets out of it.

It is relevant for me, it would be worth it for me (I'dont know who the "us" you are referring to is or what this group's values are)

The point is, what does it have to offer us?

It offers me the peace of knowing Gods name will be vindicated ; thats what *I* get out of it. (I cannot speak for the "us" because I cannot know who you are refering to).

What's the motivation?

See above

What is the stick and carrot without heaven and hell?

I don't believe I'm going to heaven and I don't believe in HELL. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Without heaven and most particularly, without hellthreat, Christianity has nothing to sell.

I disagree (see above)

Does it [Christianity] offer a better way of life?

Good/ better is highly subjective: for me I feel it is better. For the godless I imagine they would view it as much worse.

Any questions?


JW

[nobspeople]

... but how is that worth it?

Its worth it if the most important thing is achieved regarless of the cost; and biblically the most important thing is not our personal salvation but that Gods name is vindicated. If nobody got to heaven it would STILL , in my opinion, be worth it.
Any questions


JW

Absolutely (and no need to be passive aggressive - that's an alarming trend that's not going unnoticed)
What does god's name being vindicated do for you, exactly?
And why?
And vindicated of what, exactly? Does he have bullies on the playground that he needs to avenge?

[JehovahsWitness]

What does god's name being vindicated do for you, exactly?

It makes me happy and gives me peace of mind.

.. why?

Because like most people, I feel happy when I see that which is most important to be being realised.

And vindicated of what, exactly?

Gods name.

Does he have bullies on the playground ....?

No, nobody can bully an omnipotent God; but they can challenge his souvereignty.

Does he have bullies on the playground that he needs to avenge?

Did I mention vengence? Did I say "avenge"?



JW

[nobspeople]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

It makes me happy and gives me peace of mind.

I don't doubt it does. Why does it make you happy? Or, better question, why are you unhappy thinking his name is under accusation? He can't take care of himself?

Because like most people, I feel happy when I see that which is most important to be being realised.

What, exactly, is being realized?

And vindicated of what, exactly?

Gods name.

So, god's name is being vindicated of...god's name....?

No, nobody can bully an omnipotent God; but they can challenge his souvereignty.

Isn't that kinda' 'six of one, ½ a dozen of another' type of thing? Pretty much

Did I mention vengence? Did I say "avenge"?

No. You said god's name needs vindicated of...god's name...

[Miles]

Because biblically Jesus' primary mission was not the salvation of mankind, it is the vindication of his Fathers name. Our personal salvation is secondary to that.

Interesting, particularly in light of the following:

1 Timothy 1:15 (NWT)
15 This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.+ Of these, I am foremost

Luke 19:10 (NWT)
10 For the Son of man came to seek and save what was lost.”+

John 12:47 (NWT)
47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world.+

John 3:17 (NWT)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.+

Hebrews 5:8-9 (NWT)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.+ 9 And after he had been made perfect,+ he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+

1 John 4:9 (NWT)
9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son+ into the world so that we might gain life through him.+

Romans 5:8-9 (NWT)
8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.+ 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood,+ will we be saved through him from wrath.+

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Because biblically Jesus' primary mission was not the salvation of mankind, it is the vindication of his Fathers name. Our personal salvation is secondary to that.

Interesting, particularly in light of the following:

1 Timothy 1:15 (NWT)
15 This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.+ Of these, I am foremost

Luke 19:10 (NWT)
10 For the Son of man came to seek and save what was lost.”+

John 12:47 (NWT)
47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world.+

John 3:17 (NWT)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.+

Hebrews 5:8-9 (NWT)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.+ 9 And after he had been made perfect,+ he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+

1 John 4:9 (NWT)
9 By this the love of God was revealed in our case, that God sent his only-begotten Son+ into the world so that we might gain life through him.+

Romans 5:8-9 (NWT)
8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.+ 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood,+ will we be saved through him from wrath.+

.

Yes , all secondary to the vindication of his Fathers name.


JW