Nephilim

[nobspeople]

Nephilim, in the Hebrew Bible, a group of mysterious beings or people of unusually large size and strength who lived both before and after the Flood. The Nephilim are referenced in Genesis and Numbers and are possibly referred to in Ezekiel. The Hebrew word nefilim is sometimes directly translated as “giants” or taken to mean “the fallen ones” (from the Hebrew naphal, “to fall”), but the identity of the Nephilim is debated by scholars.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nephilim

Some within the cryptozoology field believe sasquatch are nephilim (or descendants of). They site things like: strength, height, supernatural abilities (tracks disappearing in the middle of no where, gliding stride, speed, 'clocking' and lack of dead bodies for examples), sightings from almost every continent and inability to be photographed (though, to be fair, there are photos and videos showing alleged bigfoot).

Is it possible the nephys (my term) survived into modern day and are, in fact, cryptic creatures like bigfoot*?
Why or why not?

*Nephys could also be said to be reason for sightings of things like dogmen, goatmen, glimmerman, among others.

[brunumb]

You would need a Bible study to answer all of those questions, because it is a Biblical story with a Biblical application....

All that was asked for was mostly Chapter and Verse. That's not so hard is it?

[brunumb]

Over 70% of the earth's surface is covered by oceans. There was water above the earth's atmosphere, according to the creation account as well as underground water that was used in the flood. You don't think the Creator has the ability to flood the world? We are living in a closed system, so not a drop of water leaves earth's atmosphere by natural means. It is all perpetually recycled. A beautifully designed system.

The amount of water needed to satisfy the biblical flood story has been calculated numerous times and found to be about 4.5 times the total amount of water present on the planet, regardless of location. Please explain where the extra water needed for the flood came from and where it subsequently went. If God-magic must be employed, we are back to the question of why it wasn't used to simply vanish all the bad people without all the collateral damage associated with the flood.

Have you ever wondered where all that flood water might have gone?
Why are scientists concerned about global warming? The ice shelves in the polar regions are melting at an alarming rate, and the sea levels are already rising.....if all the water that forms the the polar ice caps melts, scientists say that the earth would again be flooded.

The ice caps were included in the water volume calculations. If they all melted, the entire surface of the planet would not be covered with water even though low lying areas would be flooded. If the ice caps completely melted, they would not simply refreeze in a matter of a few years as required by the biblical flood story.

So how did all that water that became frozen in the polar ice caps get there? Aren't the poles magnetic? Isn't water affected by magnetic forces?

Simple answer to that is NO, water is not affected by magnetic forces. Have you not wondered why the water in the oceans isn't attracted to the poles by the magnetic forces you propose?

What creates the tides on earth? Isn't it the magnetic pull of the moon?

Again, NO. It is gravity, not magnetism.

What if the flood created massive climate change by removing that water canopy that was above the atmosphere, and the water was drawn up to the polar regions and snap frozen? I am just speculating of course....

Speculation is fine as long as it is based on broad, sound scientific knowledge. A water canopy of the size suggested could not be sustained and human life below it simply could not exist.

...but there is geological evidence that the world once enjoyed a more uniform climate.....so I think my speculation may not be far off.

The planet has gone through countless changes in geographical structure and climate over billions of years, none of which relates to the time of the biblical episode.

You are free to believe whatever you wish.

That much is true, but what one believes should not simply be a matter of personal choice. It should be informed by evidence, knowledge and understanding. Applying that to the biblical flood leads to the inevitable conclusion that it did not happen in reality and to believe otherwise is simply a matter of blinkered faith.

ETA: Noah's Ark: The Story That Disproves the Entire Bible

[brunumb]

Considering the creator, your omnipotent god, could flood the world if he needed to, brings up the question of why he bothered to go to all the trouble he did in the first place. Does it really make sense that this omnipotent, omniscient god would got to the trouble of making sure all the animal, plant, and fungi species in the world would assemble in one place to make it aboard a wholly inadequate boat so they wouldn't drown in the 197 million cubic miles of water he put on Earth that would wipe out all life on Earth---save eight---when all he would have had to do is wave his magic finger and all the bad guys, and only the bad guys, would disappear?

There are valid Biblical reasons for all of those things.....but you'd need a Bible study to understand them....so I won't waste my time or yours....

Have a good one....

You would not be wasting time. That's what this discussion forum is all about. Surely you can provide the salient reasons even if it was just in point form. You would at least be allaying my suspicion that those reasons either don't exist or are very tenuous indeed.

[TRANSPONDER]

You would need a Bible study to answer all of those questions, because it is a Biblical story with a Biblical application....

All that was asked for was mostly Chapter and Verse. That's not so hard is it?

Ah...you know how that works. When they don't have an answer they run away shouting 'I win'.
Either the Flounce ..'There's no point in talking to the closed -minded..'

or the Parthian shot...'You'll wish you'd listened to me when Jesus comes...'

Or the downright nasty...'I'll be in heaven, laughing while watching you burn..'

or the misdirection...'If you research you'll find the answers' (1) which is what we got there. Effectively that's a win for you though the defeated will be implying that they could have won but they simply didn't have the time or inclination.

There's also the 'scraping a draw' aka 'agreeing to differ'. Which is a nice little cheat as it sounds like they they are being reasonable in conceding the other side has a point, but so have they. Which is the cheat. They have effectively wangled a 'my bad argument is as valid as your good one' swindle. This means that if they can pull this 'no score draw' every time, they can proclaim that 'nobody has ever been able to refute me'. I've seen that a few times. Also with those who simply Flounce and escape having to admit that they had no good argument left.

It's been a fascinating study - the 'How' of
What they argue
How they argue (2) and
Why they argue.

(1) also as 'I'm not here to educate you', 'you don't know enough about it', appeal to this or that Authority, or even throwing a wad of Bible references at you and telling you to study them. The 'interpretation' line is similar. But that's more to do with denial of the evidence rather than trying to win the debate with evidence they say they have, but they actually can't produce it.

(2) the How being based not on evidence but on Faith and apologetics of the three kinds
1st kind (Evidence) Not seeing where it leads but leading it where they want it ro go. And of course, accusing the Other side of doing that
2nd kind (fiddling) misdirection, misrepresentation, analogy as evidence, trundling the ol' goalposts, appeals to authority, going off at a tangent and the like lawyer -tricks.
apologetics of the Third kind. Cheek. Sauce, personals, starting a fight. Either cheap and irrelevant point - scoring or trying to trash the argument or manufacture an excuse to Flounce.

As much as knowing the arguments, you have to learn the ploys and wangles.

There's an old saw: 'Debating with a (Theist/Creationist/Christian) is like playing chess with a pigeon'.

It seems like there is no understanding of the rules, comprehension of the purpose or ability to stick to the game. But they know (instinctively) what they are doing. They know when they are losing ground and it's time to change the subject, fiddle in some fallacies or go on the attack. The atheist had to know how to counter these gambits...preferably before they are made even if they protest '''I never even mentioned that!'

[JehovahsWitness]

Is it possible [Nephilim] survived into modern day and are, in fact, cryptic creatures like bigfoot*? Why or why not?

Biblically no because only 8 people survived the flood; all other land creatures and all humans outside of the ark died in the flood waters.



JW



Why did God destroy the Nephelim?
viewtopic.php?p=875690#p875690

[JoeyKnothead]

Is it possible [Nephilim] survived into modern day and are, in fact, cryptic creatures like bigfoot*? Why or why not?

Biblically no because only 8 people survived the flood; all other land creatures and all humans outside of the ark died in the flood waters.

"Biblically", poking sticks in the ground can change the color or pattern of goats. This ain't a book I'd rely on for no more'n to help prop up that missing leg on the yard sale couch out there on the porch.

And how come when I buy a couch, I can't put it in my own dang living room, right by that one the pretty thing bought? It's sexism's what it is. Why, just the other day she was apicking on me cause I used her deodorant on mistake. "Sissy." "Girly man." It was embarrassing. Right in front of the dogs. My smeller don't work good, I didn't know. So I asked her what it was I put on, and she wouldn't even tell me! Just kept saying, "It's secret." I hate her. But she's too strong to beat up.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Nephilim, in the Hebrew Bible, a group of mysterious beings or people of unusually large size and strength who lived both before and after the Flood.

There are also stories of people living to 900+ years, which we know is impossible without invoking the powers of an omnipotent god. And the creation story itself is similar fiction. I think the writer(s) simply made up all of this stuff (including the flood story) because at the time no one had any idea how Earth really came into existence, what a planet even was, what the "lights in the sky" were and how they got there, how storms, famines and floods actually work, that microorganisms existed, or atoms and molecules, etc. etc. This ignorance gave them free license to create stories for the basis of the religion they were developing without any regard for fact, and some of them stuck around for each religion.

If someone believes that an omnipotent god exists, then virtually anything can be made up and justified because there is no need to comply with the normal laws of nature, or science. So if giant humans are needed to add some spice to a story, or help explain something, why not? If far more water is needed than exists to cause a global flood covering the highest mountain, just let the omnipotent god produce it from nothing. It would be a far more boring narrative to just have a sentence or two stating that the omnipotent god decided to start over with all the air breathing animals and wiped out all but 8 humans and some selected animals by simply making them vanish into thin air (which he could have done, by definition). Fiction allows that sort of thing and that is what a lot of these stories clearly are (when looked at through the lens of reality).

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Jemima in post #3]

By all accounts this is an ape-like creature, not a human.

Not true. Many ingenious people consider them another type of person or people. Others consider them spiritual and supernatural.

"Sightings" can be figments of people's overactive imaginations, and grainy images could be anything. People see pictures of all sorts of things in the clouds.....its the way our minds work.

Absolutely, not to mention mis-identifications. But if only 1 is real, then we have something more tangible and real.

[Jemima]

Considering the creator, your omnipotent god, could flood the world if he needed to, brings up the question of why he bothered to go to all the trouble he did in the first place. Does it really make sense that this omnipotent, omniscient god would got to the trouble of making sure all the animal, plant, and fungi species in the world would assemble in one place to make it aboard a wholly inadequate boat so they wouldn't drown in the 197 million cubic miles of water he put on Earth that would wipe out all life on Earth---save eight---when all he would have had to do is wave his magic finger and all the bad guys, and only the bad guys, would disappear?

There are valid Biblical reasons for all of those things.....but you'd need a Bible study to understand them....so I won't waste my time or yours....

You would not be wasting time. That's what this discussion forum is all about. Surely you can provide the salient reasons even if it was just in point form. You would at least be allaying my suspicion that those reasons either don't exist or are very tenuous indeed.

OK, I'm going to assume that you would like a Bible study and I will endeavor to make this as concise as possible....

I'll take it point by point.... I'll try not to make it too long and complicated, but you how these things can be.....

Considering the creator, your omnipotent god, could flood the world if he needed to, brings up the question of why he bothered to go to all the trouble he did in the first place.

God's first purpose was fantastic....he singled out one small planet out of a whole universe, to start the ball rolling with the creation of mortal, sentient creatures.....enclosed in an atmosphere containing all the right gases to facilitate oxygenation, and all the right foods that would promote growth and health, and a miraculous substance called water. So far not found anywhere else.

All this was done with self-perpetuating, self-replicating systems on a planet that was perfectly placed for life to thrive....a perfect distance form its sun, and with just the right rotation on its axis to provide a variety of seasons, and a speed that would be perfect to sustain all that the Creator put in place......in fact God filled the world with all kinds of life forms....and last of all he created man, different to the animals in that this intelligent creation alone was endowed with God's attributes. He placed these in a park like garden....with everything supplied, and gave them an assignment.

He assigned the humans to be caretakers of all that existed on this chosen planet. They would fill the earth with their children and spread the borders of their paradise home until the whole world resembled the garden of Eden. All they had to do to maintain an eternal, idyllic existence was obey one simple command. God gave them a great start, but warned them not to partake of the fruit of just one tree....this one, God had claimed as his own personal property. It involved knowledge that would not be beneficial to humans in any way.....in fact it was so detrimental that to take this fruit would incur the death penalty......it was the only cause of death.

They had unlimited access to every other tree of the garden including "the tree of life" which made it possible for them to continue living in their mortal flesh. The fruit of the tree he had forbidden them to partake of, was not of itself poisoned in any way....it actually represented God's Sovereign right to set limits to the freedom that he had granted them. Absolute freedom would be a curse, not a blessing....but they had to find this out the hard way.

Another entity appeared on the scene disguised as a serpent. (no creature at that time was harmful so the woman was not afraid of it.) This creature (who was assigned as a guardian) was consumed by his own magnificence, and entertained a desire to become a god himself, so he lured the woman into his web of deception, by tempting her into disobedience, and she in turn lured the man, until he had created a separation of them from their God. Now he could make them his slaves.

But the separation meant forfeiting their paradise for life outside the garden on cursed ground...it also meant imperfection in their flesh, and no help from God at all....if this is what they chose, to live autonomously and without interference form God, then so be it. This is all in the first three chapters of Genesis. Other parts of the bible provide insights as well...but that is how it all stared.

Does it really make sense that this omnipotent, omniscient god would got to the trouble of making sure all the animal, plant, and fungi species in the world would assemble in one place to make it aboard a wholly inadequate boat so they wouldn't drown in the 197 million cubic miles of water he put on Earth that would wipe out all life on Earth---save eight---when all he would have had to do is wave his magic finger and all the bad guys, and only the bad guys, would disappear?

Well, let me put it this way....would the omnipotent and omniscient God who created it all, not have the power to do whatever he pleases with his own creation? Why assume that he has limitations? He tells what appears to be a simple story told to a simple people, but no one really knows the exact details of how it all went down. The main theme of the story was how God responded to interference from the other spirit beings that the original 'serpent' had also managed to turn away from God in disobedience? These materialized on earth and wreaked havoc among mankind, creating a situation that God would not tolerate or ignore....the creation of beings who had no right to exist, so he took measures to make sure that the circumstances that led to this situation could never happen again.

God could have eliminated all rebels from existence with a word, but he chose not to because of his far sighted wisdom. Since free will was the possession of all his intelligent creatures, he would instead allow them to demonstrate to themselves the folly of disobedience to his sovereign will. God did not create a democracy....make no mistake, his is a dictatorship, but a benevolent one, with only the best motives driving his actions. He can see into the future and he knows how best to handle rebellion or any other circumstance that may arise. You allow them enough rope.....

So there you have it.....believe it or not...that is how I believe the Bible portrays things....

[brunumb]

[Replying to Jemima in post #19]

Apart from the first one, the quotes you have attributed to me further down actually belong to Miles.