How much research is necessary?

Argue for and against Christianity

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nobspeople
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How much research is necessary?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

When someone mentions biblical contradictions, often times they're met with responses like:
"Well, if you read XYZ, you will see that what it really means is..."
"You have to understand the world they lived in at the time"
"What god really means is...."
"The original language says...."

It seems as though, many think that in order to understand the bible, you must first have to have a understanding of the time it was written, history, other biblical passages (which I personally find hysterical - you expect someone to read another part of the bible to understand a different part of the same bible?!?), have an 'innate' understanding of what god 'meant', knowledge of the language of origin, and on and on and on.

This is the bible.
It's god's word directly (or inspired if you believe that) and it's meant as a map to god and or christ (again, depending on what sect you want to believe).

So why can't the bible just be presented, as an all-in-one roadmap, instead of needing other references and understandings?
Surely god knew not everyone would have access to knowing the 'original language', have the ability to 'know' what god means instead of what's written, a understanding of the time of it writing, and on and on and on, right?

Should the bible be the best and only source needed to find christ, or should people actively look for other sources to find christ?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

2ndpillar2
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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #21

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:57 pm The basic message of the bible is as I see it very very simple: from paradise lost to paradise regained. Many of its basic concepts are very simple (a loving Creator, a hope for a better world, his son with a message of "good news" of an end to suffering ...) ... a child could understand it.

To please God, I believe, we do not have to be experts we just need to be humble, want to learn and be willing to put into practice what we do.
That said, this is a surprisingy big book with a lot of intertwined information. Indeed there are not a lot of books you can use both at " PhD level" and at kindergarden but the bible is I believe one of them. The problem is some I have spoken to seem to think what they learnt in Sunday school is all there is, in other words they are at kindergarden level but forge into discussions with those at "PhD level" and are shocked they cannot keep up.
Would you walk into an operating threatre, grab the scaple from the surgeon and pronounce: "How hard can this be?"just because you've watched a couple of episodes of "General Hospital"
The bible is a very deep book that exists on many levels. Like the illustrations of Jesus which on the surface were a series of pretty stories with a moral ("play nice"); it just didn't occur to his listeners that some of them were commentaries on their religious leaders, their system of worship, the fulfillment of messianic prophecies, the establishment of a New World Order, the end of the Judaic temple based system, the course of Christianity over the next 2,000 years, and much much more.

In short, I believe you get as much out of the bible as you believe is in there; and I believe it gives us tiny glance of the mind of God so it's depth for me is infinite.

JW
To learn more please see other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , HERMENEUTICS* and ... BEST TRANSLATION
* bible interpretation
The "kingdom of God" is for the little children/righteous (Daniel 12:10) to understand, and the "wise and intelligent" to not know (Matthew 11:25) & (1 John 2:27-29).

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #22

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:31 am ...
So why can't the bible just be presented, as an all-in-one roadmap, instead of needing other references and understandings?
Surely god knew not everyone would have access to knowing the 'original language', have the ability to 'know' what god means instead of what's written, a understanding of the time of it writing, and on and on and on, right?

Should the bible be the best and only source needed to find christ, or should people actively look for other sources to find christ?
I think it is enough when one remains in truth, avoids making own interpretations and allows Bible to explain what is means.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #23

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:54 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:31 am ...
So why can't the bible just be presented, as an all-in-one roadmap, instead of needing other references and understandings?
Surely god knew not everyone would have access to knowing the 'original language', have the ability to 'know' what god means instead of what's written, a understanding of the time of it writing, and on and on and on, right?

Should the bible be the best and only source needed to find christ, or should people actively look for other sources to find christ?
I think it is enough when one remains in truth, avoids making own interpretations and allows Bible to explain what is means.
Time for the Theist - English dictionary and phrasebook

(Theist) "one remains in truth, avoids making own interpretations and allows Bible to explain what is means"

(English) "Just have Faith, don't ask questions and accept whatever it tells you."

Of course, it's never as easy as that. Even kids can ask awkward questions, and you need Organized religion to slap down...I mean, Answer their questions, keep them thinking the same thing and topping up the Faith with regular meetings and Instruction. And even worse, those pesky atheists who won't shut up and go away, won't be silenced and will infest forums like this, and the trouble is that Flouncing when the theist end of the discussion starts running out of gas and excuses just hands the goddless the game.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #24

Post by bjs1 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am
This (Doubt seems to be the enemy of faith.) is false. Without doubt, faith is impossible.
I can't agree that it's false, in the context of usage. Faith is always possible as, like belief, it only requires one to have it for it to exist. You can have faith (belief) that god is real without any doubt. People do it all the time.
If a person has no doubt then he has knowledge, not faith.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am
No one believes in Christianity.
How can you demonstrate this is true for every human in history?
I can say that it is true of every form of orthodox Christianity of which I am aware. If you know of a form of Christianity that teaches faith in Christianity then I would be interested to hear off it.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am
Yes, that would be why a person needs to know the history and setting, and needs to read the entire book.
I'm not sure about this in total. A good writer, knowing the book will be read throughout history, would be able to write it well enough to avoid the need for reference materials.
Has there ever been a good writer? I have never come across a book that could be read by any culture without any knowledge about its setting or history, and it is rare to find a book that you could read a single passage from and actually understand the book on the whole.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am
Not everyone has those abilities, but especially in modern America virtually everyone has the option of asking someone who does have those abilities.
That's great for 'modern America', but there exists a world outside of that currently. And before as well https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christ ... dern-views
True, but that’s not us. We who post on this form have access to more information. If anyone on this form claims to have found a contradiction without checking the history, setting, and the rest the Bible then it is entirely right for those with more knowledge to correct that person.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am
When someone goes looking for “issues” then I would expect them to do research beyond just reading a select passages to fit their bias. I would expect that regardless of what book we are talking about.
I would suspect, then, when someone reads the bible, they'd also read other religious books - particularly if they're looking for enlighten. Some may be 'better' and more 'enlightening'.
I am in favor of seeking knowledge and truth.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am But when it comes to getting to heaven - which is the goal of every christian based on the belief system itself (saying otherwise is being less than truthful)
Funny, you (a non-Christian) now not only declare what it is that Christians really believe, but also insist that if we don’t agree with you about our beliefs then we are being dishonest.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:44 am - the bible itself, as it is today (as experts should have done their due diligence in making sure the translation and meaning is accurate enough) - if the word of god or inspired by god - should be enough for the basics of christianity. Yet, often times others act like there's more you need to read and understand than what you have in your hand.
The basics? Yes. But in this thread you talked about finding contradictions in the Bible. That goes beyond the basics. If someone claims to have found a meaningful contradiction then it is right to expect that person to have done his research. That includes checking the history, setting, and other passages in the Bible.

(Side note: Christianity is a proper noun, and should be capitalized. Is there a reason you refrain from correct grammar?)
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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brunumb
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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #25

Post by brunumb »

bjs1 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:52 pm If a person has no doubt then he has knowledge, not faith.
The absence of doubt, or a firm conviction that one is right, is regarded as deep faith. Knowledge doesn't come into it other than someone claiming that they know what they believe is true.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #26

Post by Bradskii »

bjs1 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:52 pm
The basics? Yes. But in this thread you talked about finding contradictions in the Bible. That goes beyond the basics. If someone claims to have found a meaningful contradiction then it is right to expect that person to have done his research. That includes checking the history, setting, and other passages in the Bible.
You must be aware of the way God is presented in the OT as compared to the NT.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #27

Post by historia »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:31 am
So why can't the bible just be presented, as an all-in-one roadmap, instead of needing other references and understandings?
Because it's simply not that kind of a book.

John Barton, professor at Oxford University, puts it this way in his recent book, The History of the Bible (2019):
Barton wrote:
The Bible does not 'map' directly onto religious faith and practice, whether Jewish or Christian . . . The Bible is very unlike a creed or a 'Confession' . . . It is a mele of materials, few of which directly address the question of what is to be believed . . . .

There are versions of Christianity that claim to be simply 'biblical' (no versions of Judaism do so), but the reality is that the structures and content of Christian belief, even among Christians who believe their faith to be wholly grounded in the Bible, are organized and articulated differently from the contents of the Bible . . . [The Bible] is not and cannot be the whole foundation of either Judaism or Christianity . . . .

The Bible is centrally important to both Judaism and Christianity, but not as a holy text out of which entire religious systems can somehow be read. Its contents illuminate the origins of Christianity and Judaism, and provide spiritual classics on which both faiths can draw; but they do not constrain subsequent generations in the way that a written constitution would. They are simply not that kind of thing. They are a repository of writings, both shaping and shaped by the two religions at various stages in their development, to which later generations of believers are committed to responding in positive, but also critical, ways . . . .

Judaism thus has a holy book, and a set of religious beliefs and practices, but the two are known not to correlate exactly, despite being congruent; and this may be a better model for understanding Christianity too than the common Protestant perception of doctrine and practice as straightforwardly derived from the Bible.
That seems right to me, and obviously so.

We all read the Bible through the lens of tradition, and that is how it is meant to be understood. Or at least this is how Jews and Christians have historically understood the place of the Bible within their respective religions.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #28

Post by historia »

Miles wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:18 pm
And isn't it interesting that god seemingly doesn't care one wit that different people derive contradictory beliefs out of it. For instance:
Learn Religions wrote:
To understand what different Christian denominations believe, you can start with the ancient creeds and confessions, which spell out their major beliefs in a short summary. The Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed both date back to the fourth century.
Anglican/Episcopal: Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed.
Assembly of God: Statement of Fundamental Truths.
Baptist: Generally avoid creeds or confessions that might compromise commitment to the Scriptures as the sole rule of faith.
Lutheran: Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, Augsburg Confession, Formula of Concord.
Methodist: Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed.
Presbyterian: Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, Westminster Confession.
Roman Catholic: Many, yet focus on the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed.
He just lets them go on concocting various theologies willy-nilly as if none of it mattered
This is a rather odd conclusion to derive from the quote you provided. After all, it notes that most denominations accept the same ancient creeds as the basic summary of their beliefs. It seems then there is quite a bit of agreement on core doctrines among these "different people," and has been for quite a long time.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #29

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:41 am I'm sorry perhaps I should rephrase, in my opinion based on my experience, the truth about Gods purpose for mankind and how to obtain salvation can be found using any translation of the bible.
That's all very well, but without facts or evidence to back up that opinion it essentially has no value. Why should anyone care?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: How much research is necessary?

Post #30

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:54 pm I think it is enough when one remains in truth, avoids making own interpretations and allows Bible to explain what is means.
If you don't have your own interpretation then where do you get it from? Given that there are numerous interpretations out there, how do you figure out which is the correct one? I'm going to guess and say it's the one you like best.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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