Wishful pareidolia

[nobspeople]

When asked 'where's god?' many times, you're told 'just look around - he's everywhere!'
This seems to be a form of pareidolia.
When I look around, I see a tree, a pond, grass, grey sky (rain's coming today). I hear some birds singing and the blowing of a bit of wind.
I don't see anything that resembles a deity that sent his son/self/son to sacrifice himself (to whom?, but that's another topic) either walking around, standing, sitting, dancing... whatever.
But when I was a christian, I did see god in the trees, pond, on and on and on.
Why is it different now?

Maybe I've seen the truth that the christian god - the one people claims speaks to them, protects them, saves them - is nothing more than a personification of want? And seeing this god in the trees, clouds, lives of others was nothing but wishful pareidolia on my part?

For discussion:
Is god nothing more than wishful pareidolia based of one's wants and desires? Or does god hide itself when a believer stops believing?
Or is it something else altogether?

[TRANSPONDER]

The ''God Instinct' is real. Or maybe the 'god -instinct' as (of course) it doesn't say which one, if all humanity has it, as it does. We all create 'god'(or gods) in our own image, and re -create it if the religion changes, as when Judaism was used to produce Christianity.

Pareidolia is a bit more specific (seeing faces in the fire or botty-wortties in the wallpaper). Biut human misperception is universal and widespread. It's understandable. Of course the earth looks flat and of course it looks like a sky - dome over it. Which is what the Ancients thought and is what the Bible describes. It even suggests mountains around the Circle with sluice -gates in that can be opened to flood the world (a Wind was produced to push the waters back behind the gates when the flood was over). as well as as openings in the dome to let the waters above help to inundate the world.

At the risk of being repetitive, it took science to explain that was wrong and what the solar - system and universe is really like.

Apart from that, is the feeling that a Mind must be behind it all. This is also understandable as the toolmaking animal knows that complex structures have to be made. Farming - humans knew that trees grew from seeds so they didn't mean by 'only God can make a tree' that God made trees.They grew. But who arranged that complex system? It has to be made by God, just as a watch has to be made by a person.

The problem there is that even the God -believing scientists of the past, trying to explain how he did i, found it worked without the need for a god (1) and what He has to do got less and less; and, today, apart from the denialists, we are arguing about who made the stuff that the BB event grew out of. Everything else actually has a decent answer. Buy into i or not.

Not perhaps that it will end the matter even if Something from nothing can be explained. Humans will still feel that there is still a Mind and Intent behind it all. And worse, it will bear an amazing resemblance the religious ideals and even themselves.

(1) early on the argument was about the BB.A Finger had to be on the button. No.The event through Gravity or valency pulled together and (being made of nothing much but energy, a universe - full of energy the size of a grapefruit. It was inevitable that it would explode like a coiled spring. When and why and -it seems How (and thus Why) - is answered. The BB no longer needs a god. But what about the stuff it was made from,eh?Who made that..?

[1213]

When asked 'where's god?' many times, you're told 'just look around - he's everywhere!'
...
But when I was a christian, I did see god in the trees, pond, on and on and on.
Why is it different now?
...
Is god nothing more than wishful pareidolia based of one's wants and desires? Or does god hide itself when a believer stops believing?
Or is it something else altogether?

When you saw God, what did you see?

Bible tells about God:

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 4:24

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8

We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16

How do you think love could be seen? Can it be in actions/works, similarly as gravity can be seen by its effect?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #3]

When you saw God, what did you see?

Did you not see that I told you that already?

How do you think love could be seen?

Can't it be seen in a myriad of ways?

Can it be in actions/works, similarly as gravity can be seen by its effect?

See previous answer.

How can god, being seen in nature (The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands; For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.), not be a possible case of pareidolia? Especially when one wants to see god?
The answer, is, YES, of course.
Saying 'no' would be a direct lie.

[Purple Knight]

And seeing this god in the trees, clouds, lives of others was nothing but wishful pareidolia on my part?

It's much deeper than that. The god you're seeing just isn't the Christian God. The god you're seeing is much older, and has ties to animism and Paganism. It isn't a single entity, but it is ingrained very deeply in anyone with ancestors who were Pagans, Nature-worshipers, or the like, which is almost everyone. As a Christian you just attributed it to Christianity but you were seeing a very different, much older spirit.

I believe it's ingrained genetically. And yes, memories of these sorts can be transmitted genetically. These mice were taught to fear the smell of cherry blossoms and it lasted for two more generations. How long would it last if every generation for ten thousand years had the memory reinforced?

Christianity is about the furthest from a Nature religion you can get, yet this seeing God in Nature is not a unique experience.

If I was religious, I would be very careful to make sure you're not allowing a deity that hates you to eat from the food dish of the one that actually cares about you. This is generally the thought I have when I explore the maybe. What I don't think, even if it's all true, is that this world started out monotheistic. I think it ended up monotheistic, because one of those beings found a way to monopolise the food dishes of all the others, and they all starved to death.

[TRANSPONDER]

Of course. Trying to prove God with 'Love' is like trying to prove God with morals.

It is the old trick of claiming everything good (especially if it can't be explained - or they think it can't) for God and blaming anything that isn't good on Man or if necessary the Devil.

In fact (or so I'd argue) morals are man - made, like religion and (though moral codes can be amazingly similar in different cultures) they reflect the society they evolved in - like the religions and the gods that go with them.

Religion then claims these moral codes for their god, having them give us the moral codes, or at least giving us the moral instinct. In fact religions tend to get dragged along behind social changes, reluctantly, pulling against moral advances, then catching up and pretending 'hey..that's what we were teaching all along'. SS marriage is the touchstone example just now.

Love is the same. It's a feelgood instinct and of course Religions want to take the credit, if not for instructing us how to love, (by damning, ostracising and burning anyone who isn't in the club, in the next world if they can't do it in this one), by taking credit for the instinct. Paul says that 'Righteousness...hang on..dammit it'll have to a footnote..(1)

But (like morality, and indeed consciousness) science is beginning to understand the scientific, instinctive and thus evolutionary origins of Love and morality. That particular gap (or rather, apologetic) for God, any other god and all the religions, is closing. Like all the others.

P.s apologies for my lazy spellcheck of the previous post.

(1) Paul says that 'Righteousness is 'written on our hearts' (that means in our minds, and that now looks like evolved instinct). Just as he claims God's bruised thumbnail is shewn forth in the heavens, flowers, trees and Ichneumon flies. In fact evolution (chemical and biological both) is what nature is an advert for, both the good and the bad and the fact that lions kill gazelles instead of growing potatoes, is down to evolution, which which can be seen is true, even if it isn't always nice. And we don't have to blame it on Man (or even worse, Woman) for listening to the serpent that God put there to get them to sin.

[bjs1]

And seeing this god in the trees, clouds, lives of others was nothing but wishful pareidolia on my part?

Perhaps, but then how can you be more confident that when you now see only the physical things, with nothing behind them, that this is not its own form of wishful thinking? The desire not to see God can be at least as strong as the desire to see Him.

[Jemima]

When asked 'where's god?' many times, you're told 'just look around - he's everywhere!'
This seems to be a form of pareidolia.

It has been said in the past that pareidolia was considered a symptom of psychosis, but it is now seen as a normal human tendency. It’s interesting that some people have a greater tendency towards it than others. I have been able to see faces and animals in odd places since childhood, but I ended up as an artist so my creative talents led me to see more that perhaps someone not so gifted? So rather than being a symptom of something "wrong" it is merely our human tendency to see faces and familiar things in nature. Facial recognition, which we all seem to take for granted, is programmed in us...failure to recognize faces is a disorder of the brain. Imagine not being able to identify your own mother or child?

When I look around, I see a tree, a pond, grass, grey sky (rain's coming today). I hear some birds singing and the blowing of a bit of wind.
I don't see anything that resembles a deity that sent his son/self/son to sacrifice himself (to whom?, but that's another topic) either walking around, standing, sitting, dancing... whatever.

If you were to see an amazingly designed piece of architecture, would you not admire the mind of the one who used his creative abilities in such a way as to construct his project first on paper, and them move it to become reality by taking the necessary steps to bring it about....perhaps in a way that is impossible for you or I? The architect of the building is always given credit for the design.....no one assumes that the building just appeared out of nowhere without planning, chosen construction materials, engineering skills, and a skilled contractor to undertake the work. Its a no-brainer...right? (Hebrews 3:4)

But when I was a christian, I did see god in the trees, pond, on and on and on.
Why is it different now?

Perhaps you have fallen victim to "the god of this world"? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)...whom Paul described as one who could "blind the minds" of those who don't "believe".
He doesn't just blind the eyes...but can disable the processing center of our brain that filters all input from the senses...but only if we let him. Jesus indicated that people could 'see' but still be blind....could be 'deaf' whilst retaining their hearing. Its a special kind of 'blindness' that does not allow the truth to penetrate. It is we who invite that 'god' into our lives.

Maybe I've seen the truth that the christian god - the one people claims speaks to them, protects them, saves them - is nothing more than a personification of want?

Since the apostolic period, God has not done that....there is no need. All we need is recorded in the scriptures which some do interpret to suit their own wants and needs. It won't get them anywhere. We have to be immersed in "doing the will of God" not promoting ourselves as someone special.

And seeing this god in the trees, clouds, lives of others was nothing but wishful pareidolia on my part?

Or maybe it was something else entirely.....something you have not considered?

For discussion:
Is god nothing more than wishful pareidolia based of one's wants and desires? Or does god hide itself when a believer stops believing?
Or is it something else altogether?

One has to ask if you really were a "believer" in the first place? On what did you base your faith? Who instructed you in your Christianity? What was it that you were taught to "believe"?
Read the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" to discover that all that masquerades as "Christianity" is not the real deal. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)
The "weeds" are a pathetic counterfeit created by God's adversary, designed to produce a weak faith based on little Bible knowledge and bucket loads of fear and pagan myths. If this was the "Christianity" you were led to believe was the truth, then any wonder you left....but where did you go? Did you throw the baby out with the dirty bath water?

If you do some solid research, I believe that you will find 90% of what is taught in the churches, is not even close to what Jesus taught. I believe you have been conned by a clever deceiver, along with the rest of the world (1 John 5:19)....obvious in the ridiculous state of their division. Truth unites people...it does not divide them. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

[Diagoras]

And seeing this god in the trees, clouds, lives of others was nothing but wishful pareidolia on my part?

Perhaps, but then how can you be more confident that when you now see only the physical things, with nothing behind them, that this is not its own form of wishful thinking? The desire not to see God can be at least as strong as the desire to see Him.

The desire to understand why we look at things in the world and find them 'beautiful' is, I would argue, a stronger desire. I recommend this YouTube video:

https://youtu.be/-O5kNPlUV7w

[TRANSPONDER]

When asked 'where's god?' many times, you're told 'just look around - he's everywhere!'
This seems to be a form of pareidolia.

It has been said in the past that pareidolia was considered a symptom of psychosis, but it is now seen as a normal human tendency. It’s interesting that some people have a greater tendency towards it than others. I have been able to see faces and animals in odd places since childhood, but I ended up as an artist so my creative talents led me to see more that perhaps someone not so gifted? So rather than being a symptom of something "wrong" it is merely our human tendency to see faces and familiar things in nature. Facial recognition, which we all seem to take for granted, is programmed in us...failure to recognize faces is a disorder of the brain. Imagine not being able to identify your own mother or child?

When I look around, I see a tree, a pond, grass, grey sky (rain's coming today). I hear some birds singing and the blowing of a bit of wind.
I don't see anything that resembles a deity that sent his son/self/son to sacrifice himself (to whom?, but that's another topic) either walking around, standing, sitting, dancing... whatever.

If you were to see an amazingly designed piece of architecture, would you not admire the mind of the one who used his creative abilities in such a way as to construct his project first on paper, and them move it to become reality by taking the necessary steps to bring it about....perhaps in a way that is impossible for you or I? The architect of the building is always given credit for the design.....no one assumes that the building just appeared out of nowhere without planning, chosen construction materials, engineering skills, and a skilled contractor to undertake the work. Its a no-brainer...right? (Hebrews 3:4)

But when I was a christian, I did see god in the trees, pond, on and on and on.
Why is it different now?

Perhaps you have fallen victim to "the god of this world"? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)...whom Paul described as one who could "blind the minds" of those who don't "believe".
He doesn't just blind the eyes...but can disable the processing center of our brain that filters all input from the senses...but only if we let him. Jesus indicated that people could 'see' but still be blind....could be 'deaf' whilst retaining their hearing. Its a special kind of 'blindness' that does not allow the truth to penetrate. It is we who invite that 'god' into our lives.

Maybe I've seen the truth that the christian god - the one people claims speaks to them, protects them, saves them - is nothing more than a personification of want?

Since the apostolic period, God has not done that....there is no need. All we need is recorded in the scriptures which some do interpret to suit their own wants and needs. It won't get them anywhere. We have to be immersed in "doing the will of God" not promoting ourselves as someone special.

And seeing this god in the trees, clouds, lives of others was nothing but wishful pareidolia on my part?

Or maybe it was something else entirely.....something you have not considered?

For discussion:
Is god nothing more than wishful pareidolia based of one's wants and desires? Or does god hide itself when a believer stops believing?
Or is it something else altogether?

One has to ask if you really were a "believer" in the first place? On what did you base your faith? Who instructed you in your Christianity? What was it that you were taught to "believe"?
Read the parable of the "wheat and the weeds" to discover that all that masquerades as "Christianity" is not the real deal. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)
The "weeds" are a pathetic counterfeit created by God's adversary, designed to produce a weak faith based on little Bible knowledge and bucket loads of fear and pagan myths. If this was the "Christianity" you were led to believe was the truth, then any wonder you left....but where did you go? Did you throw the baby out with the dirty bath water?

If you do some solid research, I believe that you will find 90% of what is taught in the churches, is not even close to what Jesus taught. I believe you have been conned by a clever deceiver, along with the rest of the world (1 John 5:19)....obvious in the ridiculous state of their division. Truth unites people...it does not divide them. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Imagination is, of course, a wonderful thing. But one has to be able to tell imagination from reality. There are ways of finding out which is which, or which is more likely, and it is just too easy to blame anything you don't agree with on Satan addling our minds. It is, after all, the Bible -believers who have seen Belief after Belief proven wrong. And the fact is that the cloud -cover theory goes the way of the Satan -salted fossils in credibility.

Truth..it would be nice if it unites.There's an old South Welsh saying I just made up 'There are many religions; there is only one science.' So it is rationality and verified evidence that unites, not religion. The mental inventions of the mind do not unite, they reflect individual ideas which is ok, until one insists on Faith (if not on Received Dogma) that only theirs is the correct one, and everyone else is in Darkness, influenced by the devil and unable to Interpret the Bible correctly.