Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

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Willum
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Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Journal of Noah, day 12:
We’ve begun eating the dinosaurs to allay our hunger.

With my stomach thus calmed, I revisit the murder of Sephat and his family. I feel bad about killing Sephat, he worked forever building this boat, and was a good friend.
But what Satan commands, I must do.
Now lord Satan has asked me to write the story about how the world came to be and up to now…
I don’t know, I’m just going to make it up.
Topic for debate – God was defeated by Satan everywhere else, is there any way to show this isn’t also true? (According to the religion, that is...)
That Noah was one of the evil hosts that, like Satan in the Garden, or Satan wit Job, he simply instructed one of his people (Noah) to take the place of God's good family.

After all evil survived the flood...

Doesn't the concept that the person surviving the flood being evil and corruptible demonstrate the entire Abrahamic religion is false?

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #41

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:40 am
Tcg wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:23 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:40 pm Biblically there is nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control.
Perhaps, but in this sub-forum the Bible is not considered authoritative. What can you present outside of the Bible to support this claim?


Tcg
Let me rephrase: LOGICALLY (based on the dictionary definition of the word) there can be nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control. The God of the bible* is presented as being omnipotent.
This doesn't provide any verifiable evidence that God is omnipotent. How the bible presents God is irrelevant, at least in this sub-forum.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #42

Post by Willum »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #40]

So you did say God was helpless in the face of Satan…
But changed your position.
Now you are saying God is all powerful but allowed evil to survive the flood, because he did not want to get rid of evil at that time.
There was no better time since the fall.

If he is able to prevent evil, but does not, he is not good.

Are we going to reinvent the entire epicurean paradox?

Only if I allow you to backpedal.

You made your claims.
If the show wasn’t over before, your words sealed it up.

You counter-signed Gods death warrant.

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #43

Post by Bradskii »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:19 pm
It was thus inevitable that evil would reemerge in the post-flood world since the very things that cause evil (imperfect humans and wicked spirits ) survived the flood.
There are only three reasons for punishment:

1. Retribution - simple revenge.
2. Deterrant - people will be deterred from commiting the same offence.
3. Protection - the  bad guys are removed from society.

There was no society left to protect, so we can discount 3. There was no-one left to deter so we can discount 2 as well. And as we know that God knew that He couldn't (or wouldn't) remove evil itself from the world, we're left with simple retribution.

It beats me how one can take retributive action against children and babies, and even the unborn. Any explanation would be gratefully received.

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #44

Post by TRANSPONDER »

As we have seen, the Abrahamic religions are not so easily dismissed. But it is a good debating -point. And, as an adjunct of the 'problem of evil' it has come up time and again as a major deconverting question.

Why doesn't God Do Something?

Quite apart from the Flood looking pointless, unworkable and something God regretted doing (again underlining the unsettling idea that this deity is working in the dark), again and again we get the call for a bit of help and yet it seems that the devil is allowed to do whatever he likes.

Cue....more apologetics excuses than you shake a stick at. We brought it on ourselves, Satan is lord of this world (1) it's character building, God does help...we're still doing ok aren't we? And one I got on my last forum... :D 'It's all going to come good in the end so even the Bad is really 'Good'.

And the reply was and could only be (avoiding the mixed metaphor of the rabbit -hole full of worms of God Not being Good in the human sense but what God thinks is Good) that all such may enable the believer to sideline all doubt and question (which is really all they are intending to do...though to convert the atheist would always be nice) but what are the browsers and lurkers going to think?

Bottom line is that the Faithful have to block all doubt and question. As soon as they start to seriously work it out (as distinct from just coming up with Faith -protecting apologetics), as soon as they seriously start reasoning rather than letting Faith guide their tongues, they are pretty much on the slippery slope to unbelief. And those on the sideline to start with (they want answers) have to see and decide whose apologetics make the most sense.

Does the world look like God can do whatever he likes but is letting evil rule the place, or does it look more like a world would be if it we were on our own doing the best (and worst) we can, and there never was a god (or satan) there at all?

Let the lurkers decide. And, having decided, let them post. O:)

(1) a nice example of dismissal of a problem with Bibklequote. Like the Q of where God came from. The Alpha and Omega quote is trotted out like the Lord of the World quote. But neither of them actually answer the question.

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #45

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:44 am
This doesn't provide any verifiable evidence that God is omnipotent.


I made no claim that he was (or even that God exists) my point is : if an omnipotent there God exists, then by definition there can be nothing He is "helpless" before.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #46

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:15 pm
Tcg wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:44 am
This doesn't provide any verifiable evidence that God is omnipotent.


I made no claim that he was (or even that God exists) my point is : if an omnipotent there God exists, then by definition there can be nothing He is "helpless" before.
Let's see:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:40 am
Let me rephrase: LOGICALLY (based on the dictionary definition of the word) there can be nothing an omnipotent God is "helpless" to control.
Nope, no if in this claim.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #47

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:19 pmNope, no if in this claim.
Fair enough I retract the original claim.

My new response is as follows ....
Willum wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:28 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.
if an omnipotent God exists, then by definition (ie this opinion is based on a logical conclusion from the dictionary meaning of the word) there can be nothing He is "helpless" before.



JW



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #48

Post by 1213 »

Willum wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:54 pm ...
How did evil survive the flood?
What do you mean with evil surviving? By what the Bible tells, God wanted to destroy the evil people. Do you think the people survived it?

God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen. 6:13

Evil is basically same as emptiness or darkness, it is really nothing, it is the lack of good. Can emptiness be destroyed?

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #49

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:21 pm
Tcg wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:19 pmNope, no if in this claim.
Fair enough I retract the original claim.

My new response is as follows ....
Willum wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:28 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.
if an omnipotent God exists, then by definition (ie this opinion is based on a logical conclusion from the dictionary meaning of the word) there can be nothing He is "helpless" before.

JW
Now all you have to do is explain how this hypothetical relates to topic at hand. The question of course is why the flood (pretending for a moment that such a thing ever happened) failed to rid the world of evil.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Judaism, Christianity and Islam dismissed with one meme

Post #50

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:28 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #31]

So you are saying God is helpless in the face of Satan's efforts.
Tcg wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:33 pm
Now all you have to do is explain how this hypothetical relates to topic at hand.


It relates directly to the question asked. If Willum's question is irrelevant speak to Willium.




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Why did the flood of Noahs day fail to rid the world of evil?
viewtopic.php?p=1050342#p1050342
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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