The bible seems to indicate there are a few things angels do for god:
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/ ... oing-today
Why couldn't god do these things, one wonders? Anyway...
If god created all that is everywhere (even, it seems, thing we don't that exists - thank you blind faith), surely god could have done these things itself. But god uses, at least some times, angels.
Do the angels do this willingly? Seems about 1/3 had issues with it, among other things. So god casts them out, the bible says. Seems a bit harsh, but OK - god can be a jerk when it's upset.
So it seems at least some of the angels have free will (or god created the ones casts out to be destined to be casts out, which is another topic altogether). So are the angels staying with god - doing god's will - doing so out of choice or fear?
If it's due to fear, wouldn't that make them slaves, in a sense?
If it's not out of fear (their willing choice) does this mean they agree with god and what god's doing?
Or where the 2/3 created to not have a choice?
Purpose of angels: slaves?
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
- bluegreenearth
- Guru
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
- Location: Manassas, VA
- Has thanked: 681 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #11If I understand this correctly, God created angels to be freewill agents with the choice to willingly serve him and be rewarded or disobey him and be punished. Presumably, everything about the angels God created were perfect and sinless until one power-hungry angel freely chose to disobey God. Of course, God was having none of this and subsequently booted this mutinous angel off the good ship lollipop but not before a few other angels were tempted to rebel against God as well. So, they were also made to walk the plank. Meanwhile, the remaining angels who are loyal to God remain in paradise with him for eternity as their reward.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:39 am Since the God presented in the bible can read hearts (and rewards or punishes accordingly) there would be no point in serving God grudgingly or out of a sense of compulsion.
Did all this take place before God created humans to be freewill agents with the choice to willingly serve him and be rewarded or disobey him and be punished?
- bluegreenearth
- Guru
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
- Location: Manassas, VA
- Has thanked: 681 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #12My understanding of one apologetic response to the problem of divine hiddenness is that God does not objectively demonstrate his existence to everyone in such way to make disbelief in his existence impossible because to do so would remove everyone's freewill choice to believe in God and obey him or disbelieve in God and reject him. If I've unintentionally straw-manned the apologetic, I'm confident someone will offer an appropriate correction.1213 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:52 amSorry, I am not sure what you mean, please explain.bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:35 amIf angels have freewill and some of them freely rebel against God while others remain loyal, then doesn't this undermine the apologetic response to the problem of divine hiddenness?
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #13Curious:bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:35 amIf angels have freewill and some of them freely rebel against God while others remain loyal, then doesn't this undermine the apologetic response to the problem of divine hiddenness?
How do you suggest this undermines divine hiddenness?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- bluegreenearth
- Guru
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
- Location: Manassas, VA
- Has thanked: 681 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #14It seems to undermine the apologetic response to the problem of divine hiddenness because if angels were created by God as freewill agents with the ability to freely choose obedience or disobedience and have their choices subsequently rewarded or punished accordingly, then it necessarily follows that their freewill to make decisions which will be judged by God as acceptable or unacceptable is not violated by God objectively demonstrating his existence to them such that it is impossible for any angel to disbelieve in or deny his existence. Therefore, the apologetic argument claiming that God does not objectively reveal himself because the resulting ubiquitous belief in his existence would have occurred as a consequence of coercion rather than a freewill decision to seek a relationship with him is rendered invalid by the existence of angels whose freewill decisions to seek a relationship with him or rebel against him is not violated by God objectively demonstrating his existence to them.nobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:52 pm Curious:
How do you suggest this undermines divine hiddenness?
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #15I am making no claim at all. Would you like me to share my faith based beliefs on this question?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- bluegreenearth
- Guru
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
- Location: Manassas, VA
- Has thanked: 681 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #16Credit where credit is due. I appreciate that you aren't making any claims about reality.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:39 pmI am making no claim at all. Would you like me to share my faith based beliefs on this question?
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21112
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 792 times
- Been thanked: 1122 times
- Contact:
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #17bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:37 pm I appreciate that you aren't making any claims about reality.
The only claim I am making it as follows (words in blue) : I claim to believe certain things in the bible . Would you like to hear what I believe on the question you asked: "yes" or "no"?
If "yes" I will tell you what I believe and why. If "no", have a nice life and goodbye.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
- bluegreenearth
- Guru
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
- Location: Manassas, VA
- Has thanked: 681 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #18Yes, as long as you aren't making any claims beyond claiming you believe certain things in the bible.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:12 pm The only claim I am making it as follows (words in blue) : I claim to believe certain things in the bible . Would you like to hear what I believe on the question you asked: "yes" or "no"?
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6624 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #19Why should anyone here care what you believe when this is a forum for debate? Personal beliefs don't add up to arguments, as distinct from justifying those beliefs.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:12 pm The only claim I am making it as follows (words in blue) : I claim to believe certain things in the bible . Would you like to hear what I believe on the question you asked: "yes" or "no"?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11450
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 327 times
- Been thanked: 370 times
Re: Purpose of angels: slaves?
Post #20Ok, thanks. I think that is weird idea, because I don’t think the point is really to believe in the existence of God, but to become righteous, because eternal life is promised for righteous. For that, it is not necessary to know surely that God exists.bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:54 am My understanding of one apologetic response to the problem of divine hiddenness is that God does not objectively demonstrate his existence to everyone in such way to make disbelief in his existence impossible because to do so would remove everyone's freewill choice to believe in God and obey him or disbelieve in God and reject him. If I've unintentionally straw-manned the apologetic, I'm confident someone will offer an appropriate correction.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And I also don’t think there is good reason to think that God should be hidden, for people to have a freewill choice. People have free will and they can want whatever they want, but it does not mean everything should also go as they want. I think it is a poor argument for hiddenness, which also is a questionable argument, because I think God can be seen from His actions, or effect. Or what do you think, is gravity hidden, if we can see only its effect, but not the force itself?