Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

[nobspeople]

Of course, they saying goes, 'life's not fair'. Which is true it would seem looking around.
Two scenarios:
1) There are people who, for the entire lives, try to be christian, try to follow god, live a righteous life, not sin, learn more about god, devote their lives to god, and on and on. Yet, many times, they struggle. They sin.
2) There are people who do bad things their entire life. Steal, kill, lie, discount god, reject christ, and on and on.

Person 1 lived decades ( most of their life) as a christian, doing all the things they're supposed to do, not do what they're not supposed to do, accept christ, and on and on. Yet, they doubt and decide they were honestly wrong. They don't purposefully shun or curse god, but they simply fall away. Then they die.

Person 2 lived a sinful life but, on their deathbed, confessed and accepted christ*. Then they die.

Some would say person 1 won't make it to heaven while person 2 will.

Is that fair? Not in 'is life fair' concept, but with dealing with god: is it fair that a person, who spent the vast majority of their life as a actual, functioning, real christian, then decides they were wrong, not get to heaven when the other person was a sinful nightmare for the vast majority of their life then, knowing they are dying, confesses and gets into heaven at the last possible minute?


* By whatever means your sect says is proper, and we are to assume person 2 was honest with their confession.

[Eloi]

The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.

And you know this to be a fact because __________________________fill in he blank_____________________________ .

After all, Jesus did say , "Today you will be with me in Paradise."


.

What's your point? Where did you get the story of the evildoing from? Where am I getting the analyzes from?

Or do atheists have their own version of a malefactor talking to Jesus other than the one mentioned in the Bible? I don't even know what you mean when you bring up Biblical matters and then don't want to hear the answers from the Bible ... I have no intention of wasting my time with stupid games. I have a very busy life.

[Purple Knight]

Is that fair?

I don't think it is, no.

But when I apply maximum charity, and put myself in God's shoes, what I do to remedy this is that I get a bead on everyone who lives wickedly and simply intends to deathbed confess and I run them over with a bus or something.

That's the gamble you're taking when you try to have it all. You could die of a heart attack tomorrow and then I gleefully send you to Hell for trying to cheat me. On the other hand, if you live to the point that you genuinely see you were wrong, and I put myself in the shoes of the people you wronged, then perhaps that is justice anyway.

When I believe I have been genuinely wronged, I don't want anything but for the person to see that they were in fact, wrong, and to stop doing it. Anything else I demand, I am only forced into demanding because of lack of information; I don't know who's trying to be exploitative and who's genuinely sorry. So I do ask people to make things up to me until the expected value of the thing they did was negative - until they objectively, logically ought not to have done that thing. And it works wonderfully. The people who are really sorry are eager to prove so and do it, while the people who seek to gain are always trying to weasel out of having to make anything up. But if I were a telepath I wouldn't ask for that because I wouldn't have to.

However, I do have to add that none of this is fair to the guy who tried all his life, then slipped on a banana peel and swore his %$#&er$#&ing heart out, cursing God in the worst language imaginable right before the back of his head hit the pavement and consequently went to Hell. I can't make that work. I can't apply enough charity to make that work (if that is actually how it works). I don't see why someone who takes the beginning of his life as a vacation from morality and then shapes up, is any better than someone who takes a day off at the end, especially if it was because that last day was extremely frustrating. Just doesn't work.

I don't even know what you mean when you bring up Biblical matters and then don't want to hear the answers from the Bible ...

This is something I have to point out on this forum as well. You can't debate the Bible unless you accept Biblical canon. Trying to refute parts of that canon with "lol that never happened and God doesn't exist" (before reaching a flat contradiction) is like trying to be a part of a discussion on how many siblings Spock has when your only contribution is, "lol it's a fairy tale it's not real stupid" in which case you're just not a part of that discussion.

I actually realised that if I could suspend my disbelief for Star Trek and not the Bible, then I had serious biases in play, and I've worked to overcome them.

[brunumb]

ng to refute parts of that canon with "lol that never happened and God doesn't exist" (before reaching a flat contradiction) is like trying to be a part of a discussion on how many siblings Spock has when your only contribution is, "lol it's a fairy tale it's not real stupid" in which case you're just not a part of that discussion.

It's not the same thing if you are discussing Spock and his siblings while regarding them as real people.

[brunumb]

After all, Jesus did say , "Today you will be with me in Paradise."

Did Jesus actually go to heaven on the day he died, or is this another case of a day is not really a day kind of thing?

[JoeyKnothead]

Of course, they saying goes, 'life's not fair'. Which is true it would seem looking around.
Two scenarios:
1) There are people who, for the entire lives, try to be christian, try to follow god, live a righteous life, not sin, learn more about god, devote their lives to god, and on and on. Yet, many times, they struggle. They sin.
2) There are people who do bad things their entire life. Steal, kill, lie, discount god, reject christ, and on and on.

Person 1 lived decades ( most of their life) as a christian, doing all the things they're supposed to do, not do what they're not supposed to do, accept christ, and on and on. Yet, they doubt and decide they were honestly wrong. They don't purposefully shun or curse god, but they simply fall away. Then they die.

Person 2 lived a sinful life but, on their deathbed, confessed and accepted christ*. Then they die.

Some would say person 1 won't make it to heaven while person 2 will.

Is that fair? Not in 'is life fair' concept, but with dealing with god: is it fair that a person, who spent the vast majority of their life as a actual, functioning, real christian, then decides they were wrong, not get to heaven when the other person was a sinful nightmare for the vast majority of their life then, knowing they are dying, confesses and gets into heaven at the last possible minute?


* By whatever means your sect says is proper, and we are to assume person 2 was honest with their confession.

We've got several problems here in trying to find the truth in all this...

Who's to say the god in question is the one that matters?
Who's to say they know his thinking on it?
Who's to say he listens to prayers and pleadings?
Who's to say he answers em?
Who's to say Heaven's there?
Who's to say it's be fun to get there?

There's just too many unknown and unknowables here to offer any much more'n theological speculation.

Paging myth-one.com, otseng, Miss tam, JehovasWitness. Please answer the white courtesy phone.

As for me, best I can tell, Heaven is a dull place, full of folks who can't even think to sin, much less to do it. Who wants to sit around remembering the days when sex, drugs, and rock and roll were the fashion, but here we sit, we got some chick playing Wonderwall on her harp for the umpteenth time, and some long haired hippie abragging on how he cheated death?

Give me Hell, where the girls go that show their breasteses for a bauble. Oh wait, that's New Orleans.

[Miles]

The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.

And you know this to be a fact because __________________________fill in he blank_____________________________ .

After all, Jesus did say , "Today you will be with me in Paradise."


.

What's your point?

My point is the Bible says the criminal next to Jesus expresses belief in Christ. and Jesus accepts his conversion, saying "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
So where does this criminal go? Jesus says he is going to Paradise that day. On the other hand you say he won't be going to Paradise that day, but will "be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled."

Where did you get the story of the evildoing from?

How about post #9 where you say, "The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and . . . . . . ."

Where am I getting the analyzes from?

What analysis are you referring to?


.

[Miles]

After all, Jesus did say , "Today you will be with me in Paradise."

Did Jesus actually go to heaven on the day he died, or is this another case of a day is not really a day kind of thing?

Good question. Seems ether Jesus didn't get the thee-day resurrection delay memo, or he was just foolin' with the guy.


.

[Purple Knight]

ng to refute parts of that canon with "lol that never happened and God doesn't exist" (before reaching a flat contradiction) is like trying to be a part of a discussion on how many siblings Spock has when your only contribution is, "lol it's a fairy tale it's not real stupid" in which case you're just not a part of that discussion.

It's not the same thing if you are discussing Spock and his siblings while regarding them as real people.

I disagree. I think it's exactly the same. The discussion you would have with me is exactly the same discussion and the number of Spock's siblings is exactly the same (I believe it's over 9000) regardless of whether I'm crazy and believe they all exist or not.

Furthermore, it's actually not relevant whether the Jewish God exists in our universe. Think about it for a moment. The fundamental claim of a being that supposes itself to be God is that it has something to do with morality, not that it exists. If it didn't exist but somehow still arbitrated morality then arguably it would still be God.

Think of it this way:

If that God can help people be good people, then it doesn't matter whether it exists or not. And if it can't, well, then, it still doesn't matter whether it exists or not.

[Tcg]

The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.

Evildoer? The Bible doesn't use that term. Furthermore, Jesus didn't mention anything about, "educate himself and change his lifestyle." Jesus promised paradise on the spot. Perhaps Jesus was mistaken.



Tcg'

[nobspeople]

[Replying to 1213 in post #7]

why else he would stop thinking that being righteous is good?

Where does it say being 'good' is 'righteous' or that being 'righteous' is 'good'? And what defines 'good'? Can't someone be 'good' and not 'righteous'?
I see a lot of talk about 'righteousness' on this site, but little talk on what it really means to be 'righteous'. Seems that's another thread if it hasn't already been discussed.

the last-minute change of mind, don't see it very probably.

Seems that's a point of contention, but in this scenario, we are to accept it's an honest change of mind (your words). If we want to discuss rather or not a last minute change of mind (again, your words) we can open another thread.