Of course, they saying goes, 'life's not fair'. Which is true it would seem looking around.
Two scenarios:
1) There are people who, for the entire lives, try to be christian, try to follow god, live a righteous life, not sin, learn more about god, devote their lives to god, and on and on. Yet, many times, they struggle. They sin.
2) There are people who do bad things their entire life. Steal, kill, lie, discount god, reject christ, and on and on.
Person 1 lived decades ( most of their life) as a christian, doing all the things they're supposed to do, not do what they're not supposed to do, accept christ, and on and on. Yet, they doubt and decide they were honestly wrong. They don't purposefully shun or curse god, but they simply fall away. Then they die.
Person 2 lived a sinful life but, on their deathbed, confessed and accepted christ*. Then they die.
Some would say person 1 won't make it to heaven while person 2 will.
Is that fair? Not in 'is life fair' concept, but with dealing with god: is it fair that a person, who spent the vast majority of their life as a actual, functioning, real christian, then decides they were wrong, not get to heaven when the other person was a sinful nightmare for the vast majority of their life then, knowing they are dying, confesses and gets into heaven at the last possible minute?
* By whatever means your sect says is proper, and we are to assume person 2 was honest with their confession.
Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #2[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
I have a question for clarification: You says that person 1 did not shun God, he just fell away. What is the difference?
I might say, “My dad lives down the street, but we have not seen each other or spoken in 15 years. I don’t shun him, I have just fallen away from a relationship with him.”
It seems that “fall away” would take conscious effort. If, as Christian believe and this post seems to assume, God is omnipresent then “falling away” would require an even greater degree of conscious effort. How is this falling away different from shunning?
I have a question for clarification: You says that person 1 did not shun God, he just fell away. What is the difference?
I might say, “My dad lives down the street, but we have not seen each other or spoken in 15 years. I don’t shun him, I have just fallen away from a relationship with him.”
It seems that “fall away” would take conscious effort. If, as Christian believe and this post seems to assume, God is omnipresent then “falling away” would require an even greater degree of conscious effort. How is this falling away different from shunning?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #3Better wording on my part would be:bjs1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:57 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
I have a question for clarification: You says that person 1 did not shun God, he just fell away. What is the difference?
I might say, “My dad lives down the street, but we have not seen each other or spoken in 15 years. I don’t shun him, I have just fallen away from a relationship with him.”
It seems that “fall away” would take conscious effort. If, as Christian believe and this post seems to assume, God is omnipresent then “falling away” would require an even greater degree of conscious effort. How is this falling away different from shunning?
They didn't say 'God I hate you!' but simply 'I don't think it's true anymore'.
Apologies for the confusion.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #4If a Christian group accepts the story of Jesus' crucifixion as a factual account, it'd be rather hard for them not to accept that person 2 will make it to heaven. One of the criminals crucified with Jesus reportedly stated, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Based on this expression of faith Jesus is said to have replied, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” This criminal had no time to change his ways, but Jesus assured him he'd make it to paradise.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:25 pm Of course, they saying goes, 'life's not fair'. Which is true it would seem looking around.
Two scenarios:
1) There are people who, for the entire lives, try to be christian, try to follow god, live a righteous life, not sin, learn more about god, devote their lives to god, and on and on. Yet, many times, they struggle. They sin.
2) There are people who do bad things their entire life. Steal, kill, lie, discount god, reject christ, and on and on.
Person 1 lived decades ( most of their life) as a christian, doing all the things they're supposed to do, not do what they're not supposed to do, accept christ, and on and on. Yet, they doubt and decide they were honestly wrong. They don't purposefully shun or curse god, but they simply fall away. Then they die.
Person 2 lived a sinful life but, on their deathbed, confessed and accepted christ*. Then they die.
Some would say person 1 won't make it to heaven while person 2 will.
Is that fair? Not in 'is life fair' concept, but with dealing with god: is it fair that a person, who spent the vast majority of their life as a actual, functioning, real christian, then decides they were wrong, not get to heaven when the other person was a sinful nightmare for the vast majority of their life then, knowing they are dying, confesses and gets into heaven at the last possible minute?
* By whatever means your sect says is proper, and we are to assume person 2 was honest with their confession.
Tcg
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #5.
Of course it isn't fair, but this is the nature of Christianity, and perhaps other religions as well: concepts don't need to make sense or be fair in order to be taken as fact/truth. If X says this is the way it is then that's the way it is. Period! Reasonable? No, but often times reason plays no part in faith.
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Of course it isn't fair, but this is the nature of Christianity, and perhaps other religions as well: concepts don't need to make sense or be fair in order to be taken as fact/truth. If X says this is the way it is then that's the way it is. Period! Reasonable? No, but often times reason plays no part in faith.
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #6I do not understand the real meaning of this topic.
Is the author of the first post a believer of some kind of "deathbed confession"? Is he assuming that the Bible supports the practice of deathbed confession as a means of gaining "heaven"?
Is the author of the first post a believer of some kind of "deathbed confession"? Is he assuming that the Bible supports the practice of deathbed confession as a means of gaining "heaven"?
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #7I don’t see any problem, if person is saved on last minute. However, I think it would be good to notice that in the Bible, eternal life is promised for righteous.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:25 pm ...
Is that fair? Not in 'is life fair' concept, but with dealing with god: is it fair that a person, who spent the vast majority of their life as a actual, functioning, real christian, then decides they were wrong, not get to heaven when the other person was a sinful nightmare for the vast majority of their life then, knowing they are dying, confesses and gets into heaven at the last possible minute?
...
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And being righteous means for example this:
…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
If the person was truly righteous, but then renounces it, it is sad, but I don’t see that the person would even want then to be in eternal life with God then, why else he would stop thinking that being righteous is good?
And the last-minute change of mind, don't see it very probably. Person may fear and say many things, but that does not necessary mean he has become righteous suddenly. But, I think it is possible and if person is righteous, I think it is good for eternal life.
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #8I would guess the belief in deathbed salvation comes from Luke 23:39-43 where the criminal crucified alongside Jesus is saved.
Only moments before his own death, this criminal had been an unbelieving mocker of Christ (see Matthew 27:44). However, at the last moment the criminal repented and acknowledged Jesus as the heavenly King. The Lord gave him the blessed promise, “Today you will be with me in Paradise”
Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!”
40-41 But the other criminal protested. “Don’t you even fear God when you are dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn’t done one thing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”
43 And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”
Read full chapter
39 One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!”
40-41 But the other criminal protested. “Don’t you even fear God when you are dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn’t done one thing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”
43 And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”
Read full chapter
So if can happen once why not many times? I wouldn't think Jesus would play favorites, do you?
SO, live it up people, and to excess. You have all the time in the world to be saved later on.
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #9The Bible speaks of resurrection "of both the righteous and the unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).
Although obviously those who learn to be righteous before dying have an advantage at the time of their resurrection, the unjust who are resurrected will not have to pay for the unjust acts they committed before they died, but will be educated to have the opportunity to rectify their previous behavior. From God's point of view, "natural" death is already a payment for all sin committed before that time.
Rom. 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin. (...) 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
Every person who is resurrected in the earthly paradise will have to face a different test in the future (Rev. 20:7-15). The result of that trial will determine the eternal future of each human being at that time, NOT what they did before they died.
The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.
Although obviously those who learn to be righteous before dying have an advantage at the time of their resurrection, the unjust who are resurrected will not have to pay for the unjust acts they committed before they died, but will be educated to have the opportunity to rectify their previous behavior. From God's point of view, "natural" death is already a payment for all sin committed before that time.
Rom. 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin. (...) 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
Every person who is resurrected in the earthly paradise will have to face a different test in the future (Rev. 20:7-15). The result of that trial will determine the eternal future of each human being at that time, NOT what they did before they died.
The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.
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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?
Post #10And you know this to be a fact because __________________________fill in he blank_____________________________ .Eloi wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:42 pm The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.
After all, Jesus did say , "Today you will be with me in Paradise."
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