Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

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nobspeople
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Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Of course, they saying goes, 'life's not fair'. Which is true it would seem looking around.
Two scenarios:
1) There are people who, for the entire lives, try to be christian, try to follow god, live a righteous life, not sin, learn more about god, devote their lives to god, and on and on. Yet, many times, they struggle. They sin.
2) There are people who do bad things their entire life. Steal, kill, lie, discount god, reject christ, and on and on.

Person 1 lived decades ( most of their life) as a christian, doing all the things they're supposed to do, not do what they're not supposed to do, accept christ, and on and on. Yet, they doubt and decide they were honestly wrong. They don't purposefully shun or curse god, but they simply fall away. Then they die.

Person 2 lived a sinful life but, on their deathbed, confessed and accepted christ*. Then they die.

Some would say person 1 won't make it to heaven while person 2 will.

Is that fair? Not in 'is life fair' concept, but with dealing with god: is it fair that a person, who spent the vast majority of their life as a actual, functioning, real christian, then decides they were wrong, not get to heaven when the other person was a sinful nightmare for the vast majority of their life then, knowing they are dying, confesses and gets into heaven at the last possible minute?


* By whatever means your sect says is proper, and we are to assume person 2 was honest with their confession.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #21

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #12]
put myself in God's shoes, what I do to remedy this is that I get a bead on everyone who lives wickedly and simply intends to deathbed confess and I run them over with a bus or something.
Would work for me. 8-) I think it would work for many. Karma, and all that (and not the car).
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #22

Post by bjs1 »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying, so:

No, it is in no way fair. It is grace. Grace, by definition, is not fair. It is better than fair. Had person one continued in the faith then his salvation would have been by grace, which also would not have been fair. Neither person one nor person two deserved eternal joy. For either one to receive salvation it would have to come as an unfair gift of an infinitely gracious God.

There is, as far as I can tell, only one logically necessary limitation to grace. That is that the person must want to receive it. Grace cannot be forced upon a person. To reuse a line I have recently used in another thread: God can only woo, never ravage.

Person one could say, “I don't think it's true anymore.” At that point he no longer desires grace from God, because someone who does not believe in God must find such a concept absurd. Should he desire grace once again then God could restore that grace to him. However, as long as he does not seek that grace there is nothing even an omnipotent God can do for him.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #23

Post by Eloi »

Miles wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:46 pm
Eloi wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:02 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:53 pm
Eloi wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:42 pm The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.
And you know this to be a fact because __________________________fill in he blank_____________________________ .

After all, Jesus did say , "Today you will be with me in Paradise."


.
What's your point?
My point is the Bible says the criminal next to Jesus expresses belief in Christ. and Jesus accepts his conversion, saying "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
So where does this criminal go? Jesus says he is going to Paradise that day. On the other hand you say he won't be going to Paradise that day, but will "be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled."

Where did you get the story of the evildoing from?
How about post #9 where you say, "The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and . . . . . . ."

Where am I getting the analyzes from?
What analysis are you referring to?


.
This analysis:
Eloi wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:42 pm The Bible speaks of resurrection "of both the righteous and the unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).

Although obviously those who learn to be righteous before dying have an advantage at the time of their resurrection, the unjust who are resurrected will not have to pay for the unjust acts they committed before they died, but will be educated to have the opportunity to rectify their previous behavior. From God's point of view, "natural" death is already a payment for all sin committed before that time.

Rom. 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin. (...) 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.

Every person who is resurrected in the earthly paradise will have to face a different test in the future (Rev. 20:7-15). The result of that trial will determine the eternal future of each human being at that time, NOT what they did before they died.

The evildoer next to Jesus will be resurrected on earth and will have to educate himself and change his lifestyle to serve God loyally; then he will be subjected to the same test as all other humans. Depending on what he does then, so it will be his eternal future. In his resurrection the promise of Jesus will have already been fulfilled.
Yes, the criminal next to Jesus asked him to remember him in his kingdom. That was not a deathbed confession, but a petition. Jesus made him a promise out of his acceptance of a future kingdom. As I say above, when that person is resurrected in paradise along with so many millions of just and unjust, the promise of Jesus will be fulfilled.

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #24

Post by Miles »

Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:59 pm
Yes, the criminal next to Jesus asked him to remember him in his kingdom. That was not a deathbed confession, but a petition. Jesus made him a promise out of his acceptance of a future kingdom. As I say above, when that person is resurrected in paradise along with so many millions of just and unjust, the promise of Jesus will be fulfilled.
Okay, want to change the game. Fine. I can go along with that. Tomato - Tomahto; Confession - Petition;


............ SO, . . . Deathbed Petition - is it fair?


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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #25

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Miles in post #2]
What is your point? If you want to play any game, it sounds so when I read your last posts, just don't .. I am too old for that. Get a life.

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #26

Post by Miles »

Eloi wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:23 pm [Replying to Miles in post #2]
What is your point? If you want to play any game, it sounds so when I read your last posts, just don't .. I am too old for that. Get a life.
Ah, first of all, post #2 was made by bjs1, not me. Secondly, my point should be obvious, so much so that I believe you get it, but are afraid to take it on. So be it. Image

Have a nice day.


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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #27

Post by Eloi »

What seems obvious to you does not have to be so to others. The same thing happens in reverse. Do not assume things without first being sure. Jehovah's Witnesses are always ready to have a peaceful dialogue on any subject, except when the people who try to engage us in conversation have no good intention.

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #28

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:48 am Where does it say being 'good' is 'righteous' or that being 'righteous' is 'good'? And what defines 'good'? Can't someone be 'good' and not 'righteous'?...
Probably depends on what is meant with good. Maybe no human is good. But some can be righteous.

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

Being righteous is good for example because it means person has wisdom of the just, right understanding of what is good and right and desire to do so, because he understands it is good.

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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #29

Post by Miles »

.

Just to clear up a misleading notion here.

While Eloi (a JW?) here rejects the deathbed confession of the thief crucified next to Jesus, but rather claims it to be a petition, there are many who disagree, asserting the thief did indeed confess.



. . . others were crucified with our Lord, which would fit the Roman methodology of execution. Second, the “thieves” were more than thieves; they were probably insurgents who were involved in some threat or action against Roman rule since only such a crime would result in crucifixion. Note that for this reason the Jewish leaders changed the charge against our Lord from blasphemy to claiming to be King of the Jews when He was brought to Pilate; only the latter charge would result in crucifixion. Third, one thief blasphemed our Lord, while the other one made a confession of faith and thereby was welcomed into Heaven.
source

_____________________________

Did he confess his sins? Yes. "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve" (Luke 23:41).
source

_____________________________


Dismas, after hearing the great affirmation of our Lord’s mercy, was “enlightened and touched: he confessed his sins to Jesus, and said: 'Lord, if thou condemnest me it will be with justice.'
source

_____________________________


The story of the thief on the cross serves as a microcosm for the plan of salvation. In the space of a few short verses (Luke 23:40-43), we see the believing thief pass through all the basic steps to salvation and experience all the elements necessary for conversion.
He repented of his sins and confessed his guilt.
source

_____________________________


Luke 23:39–44
INDICATIONS OF CHANGE IN THE THIEF

He was not embarrassed to acknowledge his
faith in God (v. 40).
He spoke of his reverence (fear) for God (v. 40).
He confessed that he was a sinner (v. 41). He
was not proud of his sinfulness. Evidently,
he repented.
source

_____________________________


You see the thief on the cross was indeed under the old law.
And so there was no need of his being immersed in water
in the baptism of Christ.

And yet there he hung,
crucified with Christ Jesus.
There he hung
confessing
that Jesus was the righteous King of the Jews.
There he hung
begging to be remembered by our glorious King.
source

_____________________________


After our Lord was nailed to the tree, the first to bear witness for him was this thief. The centurion bore witness afterwards, when our Lord expired; but this thief was a lone confessor, holding on to Christ when nobody would say “Amen” to what he said. Even his fellow-thief was mocking at the crucified Saviour, so that this man shone as a lone star in the midnight darkness.
source

_____________________________


Why The Good Thief Was Pardoned

Before everyone he openly confessed the Crucified Christ as Lord, and asked of Him the mercy of forgiveness.
source

_____________________________


Why were there two thieves crucified with Jesus?

In this event, one thief was pardoned, the other not, based upon a single confession of faith.
source

_____________________________


The “criminal” referred to “Jesus” as “Lord.” This thief, on that cross, made a confession of faith that “Jesus” was who He had claimed to be, and that He hung on a cross next to him “unjustly."
source

_____________________________


The thief, mentioned in Luke 23:39-43, was promised by Jesus that He would be with Jesus in paradise after their deaths that same day.

Here we see a person clearly being promised salvation by Jesus simply for a confession of Jesus’ innocence and a request to be remembered.
source

_____________________________


However, as we read the account of the crucifixion in Luke 23, we see an entirely different response from Dismas, as he hears Jesus praying for His executioners and betrayers, and he rebukes Gesmas:

"Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong!"

Dismas was repentant. He acknowledged that his punishment was just. He confessed that he had received the due reward for his crimes. He also reminded Gesmas that his own capital punishment was well deserved.
source



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Re: Deathbed confessions - is it fair?

Post #30

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to Miles in post #2]
This is the account:

Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals hanging there began to speak abusively to him, saying: “You are the Christ, are you not? Save yourself and us too!” 40 In response the other rebuked him, saying: “Do you not fear God at all, now that you have received the same judgment? 41 And we rightly so, for we are getting back what we deserve for the things we did; but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

When I hear the expression "deathbed confession" I imagine something very different from what I read in this story. I don't need anyone's interpretation of the facts ... I can read them directly from the Bible myself.

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