God using nature, or just simply nature?

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nobspeople
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God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Probably old news, but it struck me that, perhaps, much of the biblical stories that ancient people thought were 'of god' was simply nature in action:
https://theconversation.com/a-giant-spa ... dom-167678

Surely one could (and likely would) argue that, in the example cited above, is 'god using nature'.
We see it in hospitals and medical situations: someone is dying and the doctors saves their life, to which people credit god, saying "God worked through the surgeon's hands!"
But why would god do that? Why not, simply, 'do it' itself? Surely, that would be more miraculous than 'working through' a person, or people. Working through others doesn't strengthen god's case as much as it would if the person, laying dying on the table, just 'got better', sat up and said 'What's going on?!?'

We sit it in the daily lives of church goers, who ask for donations to 'help keep the lights on' in churches, or to minister to other countries. One would think god created all that is, it's not a big deal for god to keep the lights on, or provide means for these others countries to be ministered to by the appropriate people.

Once the earth was created and people started thinking, god sure needs a lot of assistance in daily activities.

Are instances like these noted above, simply the faithful (or those ignorant of how the universe tends to work) justifying their faith by claiming 'god's responsible'?
Or is there a good reason for god to use others and other 'things' to do its bidding, instead of stepping up and doing it for all to see?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #141

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:55 pm
No. I suggest reading it again. If I could see it I would have just set up a camera. No need for all the other hardware.
Disingenuous. I read it again, but I had it right the first time.

You are are now implying that you couldnt see it, yet in your simulation, God's first sentence to you was "Ive decided to APPEAR TO YOU".

And then at the end of your scenario, you have God disappearing with a *POOF*.

So maybe YOU should read it again.
Apologies for the confusion. By 'appear' I meant only I could hear/notice God's presence. No one else (including me) could actually see God with our eyes. The *poof* at the end was to signify God 'going away' such that I could no longer interact.

You can take your 'dub' on that point if you wish as that was my fault for not being crystal clear.

However, the overall point remains. We can come up with a method to study anyone who is having an 'experience' with God. Whether they are seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. From there we can attempt to track down how God is doing the communicating and then hopefully find God. I made no claim that initial tests were going to actually measure the god in question, only that it's a method to start the investigation.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:55 pm A spirit is an unembodied mind...I dont know what a "mind" looks like.
Why not just use 'mind' then? From a physical standpoint, it appears our 'mind' or collection of thoughts is simply the various parts of the brain communicating via chemical and electrical signals. We can measure chemical and electrical signals, so depending on how one defines 'mind', it seems to be measurable.

A disembodied mind makes no sense based on current observation. It may be a thing, but until we can observe it, it's as good as imaginary. Why make stuff up when we can observe brains at work. We also observe that damaged brains 'think' differently. Do spirits undergo damage at the same rate as the brain of the host?

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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #142

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:48 am I didn't address the gist of your argument because I didn't ask you to provide me with an argument. I asked you to simply indicate your confidence level in the belief. That was all.
Ohhh, I get it.

So basically what you are saying is; had I provided you the simple answer of "100%" and left it at that, that wouldn't have prompted you to ask one of your typical probing questions that you've had a history of asking..which wouldn't have prompted me to provide a more in depth explanation on my position?

So this particular case is the one exception to your (our) pattern of previous discourses.

Gotchaaa. Thanks for letting me know that. Expect one worded answers to your questions from now on.
Nevertheless, it is clear from your recalcitrant response that you are doxastically closed on this matter. So, there is no value for me in continuing with the dialogue.
Agreed :approve:
Last edited by We_Are_VENOM on Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #143

Post by Tcg »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 am
I REJECT YOUR ATTEMPT TO IMPUGN MY CHARACTER BY DECLARING I'D REJECT AN ARGUMENT BASED SOLELY ON IT BEING 'THEISTIC', OR OTHERWISE.
And right you are to do so. It is not uncommon for some theists to impugn other's characters rather than recognize the weakness of the arguments for theism. When they run out of weak arguments to present, they turn to attacking those who recognize, and quite honestly so, the weakness of the argument/s being presented. I guess we shouldn't be too surprised given that some biblical authors rely on the same logically failure of an argument.


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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #144

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 am Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual.
The above quote in itself is just a "mere statement" which doesn't make it true and factual.
I'm not bound to debate in a manner that brings you comfort, as I contend my comments are pertinent.
Well, when my points are deliberately unaddressed, I take the dub.
And again, I'm not bound to debate in a manner that brings you comfort.
Cool. So from now on, if my points arent addressed..no more convo.
Unwarranted? Maybe.

Apt? Most indubitably.
Indubitably? I refuse to respond until I consult with my attorney.
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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #145

Post by Miles »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:26 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 am Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual.
The above quote in itself is just a "mere statement" which doesn't make it true and factual.
So you don't think that "Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual" is true? That, what, merely stating something does make it true and factual?

Why am I not surprised.


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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #146

Post by JoeyKnothead »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:37 am [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #135]
Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual.
With that thinking, how will anyone become a christian?!? ;) :D
Winged rabbits and dogs're dogs!
In seriousness, IYO, is there a good reason for god to use others and other 'things' to do its bidding, instead of stepping up and doing it for all to see?
Not being there to do something makes doing something really, really difficult.
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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #147

Post by JoeyKnothead »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:26 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 am Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual.
The above quote in itself is just a "mere statement" which doesn't make it true and factual.
Lol.

I trust those reading these posts'll see my statement is closer to the truth than yours.
JK wrote: I'm not bound to debate in a manner that brings you comfort, as I contend my comments are pertinent.
Well, when my points are deliberately unaddressed, I take the dub.
You'll hafta take it, ya sure ain't earned it.
JK wrote: And again, I'm not bound to debate in a manner that brings you comfort.
Cool. So from now on, if my points arent addressed..no more convo.
Any y'all notice how We_Are_VENOM snipped out the part where I recommended to request clarificationings?
JK wrote: Unwarranted? Maybe.

Apt? Most indubitably.
Indubitably? I refuse to respond until I consult with my attorney.
I recommend a dictionary.
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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #148

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Miles wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:37 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:26 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 am Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual.
The above quote in itself is just a "mere statement" which doesn't make it true and factual.
So you don't think that "Merely stating something doesn't make it true and factual" is true? That, what, merely stating something does make it true and factual?

Why am I not surprised.


.
If you dont see the point being made there, then I cant help you.
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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #149

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:12 pm
Apologies for the confusion.
:handshake:
By 'appear' I meant only I could hear/notice God's presence. No one else (including me) could actually see God with our eyes. The *poof* at the end was to signify God 'going away' such that I could no longer interact.
Yeah, quite misleading. No more simulations for you, buddy.
You can take your 'dub' on that point if you wish as that was my fault for not being crystal clear.
Honest mistake on your part = no dub for me.
However, the overall point remains. We can come up with a method to study anyone who is having an 'experience' with God. Whether they are seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. From there we can attempt to track down how God is doing the communicating and then hopefully find God.
Ok, so if you plug my brain to a machine and monitor the reactions inside of my brain every time I think of God and/or feel his preference...you seem to believe that this method will allow you to track God down with a bloodhound and find him?

LOL!!!
I made no claim that initial tests were going to actually measure the god in question, only that it's a method to start the investigation.
Sure thing. Whatever you say, pal :ok:
Why not just use 'mind' then?
We do. Mind/spirit can be used interchangeably, but we usually use "mind" more commonly, as there is a religion connotation that comes with the "spirit" term...which is something that people like you tend to dread.
From a physical standpoint, it appears our 'mind' or collection of thoughts is simply the various parts of the brain communicating via chemical and electrical signals.
Then I guess the concept of free will is out of the question.

If we are nothing but just blobs of matter with chemicals and electric signals running through our brains, then our actions and thoughts are based upon the reactions/signals...as those are the things making the choice for us.

We are nothing but robots, apparently.
We can measure chemical and electrical signals, so depending on how one defines 'mind', it seems to be measurable.
So when I think of an apple, what about the chemicals and/or signals are the thought?

When I am sad, what about the chemicals and signals are sad?

These are the same kind of questions Ive been asking, though. It is a never ending cycle.
A disembodied mind makes no sense based on current observation.
But the argument/reasons aren't based on observation, it is based on inference.
It may be a thing, but until we can observe it, it's as good as imaginary.
Wow. Well I guess reptile-to-bird transformations in nature is imaginary. Glad we agree.
Why make stuff up when we can observe brains at work.
We observe a correlation between the mind and the body. But naturalists confuse that with the notion of one begetting the other...which is like a vegan's attitude towards beef.

It is a huge mistake (missed steak).
We also observe that damaged brains 'think' differently. Do spirits undergo damage at the same rate as the brain of the host?
Not at all. If you are riding a car and the engine blows and now the car is inoperable, your ability to use the car as a means of transportation is hindered. Or even if the car is not completely inoperable, but riding funny and needs work done...your transportation is hindered.

However, you can always get out of the car and walk.

The car = your brain

Your mind = you

When people suffer from any ailment of brain damage, there is a disconnect between the mind and the body.

However, once the mind is removed from the body, those ailments are ceased.
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Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #150

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:14 pm Lol.

I trust those reading these posts'll see my statement is closer to the truth than yours.
I agree with the statement but the point is, that the statement itself is not what makes the statement true.
Any y'all notice how We_Are_VENOM snipped out the part where I recommended to request clarificationings?
We will get to the clarificationings after we get past the unaddressments.
I recommend a dictionary.
Great idea. I went over the definition of the word, and after consulting with attorney on this matter; it was determined that it is safe to continue disagreeing with you.
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