God using nature, or just simply nature?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Probably old news, but it struck me that, perhaps, much of the biblical stories that ancient people thought were 'of god' was simply nature in action:
https://theconversation.com/a-giant-spa ... dom-167678

Surely one could (and likely would) argue that, in the example cited above, is 'god using nature'.
We see it in hospitals and medical situations: someone is dying and the doctors saves their life, to which people credit god, saying "God worked through the surgeon's hands!"
But why would god do that? Why not, simply, 'do it' itself? Surely, that would be more miraculous than 'working through' a person, or people. Working through others doesn't strengthen god's case as much as it would if the person, laying dying on the table, just 'got better', sat up and said 'What's going on?!?'

We sit it in the daily lives of church goers, who ask for donations to 'help keep the lights on' in churches, or to minister to other countries. One would think god created all that is, it's not a big deal for god to keep the lights on, or provide means for these others countries to be ministered to by the appropriate people.

Once the earth was created and people started thinking, god sure needs a lot of assistance in daily activities.

Are instances like these noted above, simply the faithful (or those ignorant of how the universe tends to work) justifying their faith by claiming 'god's responsible'?
Or is there a good reason for god to use others and other 'things' to do its bidding, instead of stepping up and doing it for all to see?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:01 pm ...
Surely one could (and likely would) argue that, in the example cited above, is 'god using nature'.
...
I think, when we are part of the nature, everything happens to us in some natural way. Even if we would agree that God does something to our body, it would happen in some way that is natural, because our body is natural. The question would only be, did God cause the natural thing to happen, or not. And that seems to be difficult to prove. However, knowing how something happened, doesn't necessary answer to question, what really caused it. I believe, if I do something good, it is because of God and without Him I wouldn't do anything.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #3

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]
The question would only be, did God cause the natural thing to happen, or not.
Which is, partially, what's being asked.
And that seems to be difficult to prove.
Welcome to christianity, eh?
However, knowing how something happened, doesn't necessary answer to question, what really caused it.
At least until it is answered. People wondered what caused thunder - some said it was angry angels or, perhaps in jest, angels 'bowling'.
if I do something good, it is because of God and without Him I wouldn't do anything.
So you wouldn't move, eat, sleep, breathe.... or are you talking about things like giving to others, being kind to people, doing positive things in the community?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #4

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:56 am ... People wondered what caused thunder - some said it was angry angels or, perhaps in jest, angels 'bowling'.
And people still really don't know what causes it, only small part of its mechanisms. It is same as person can know how a clock works, but he doesn't necessary know who made it to work and why.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:56 am...So you wouldn't move, eat, sleep, breathe.... or are you talking about things like giving to others, being kind to people, doing positive things in the community?
Without God I wouldn't even exist, so all that comes with the life, is because God made it possible.

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #5

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]
And people still really don't know what causes it [thunder], only small part of its mechanisms. It is same as person can know how a clock works, but he doesn't necessary know who made it to work and why.
Both of these are wrong:
Thunder is caused by the rapid expansion of the air surrounding the path of a lightning bolt.
A clockmaker from Nuremberg named Peter Henlein is typically credited with inventing the very first watch. He created one of these “clock watches” in the 15th century. As to the why, it's likely to tell time and organize the day. As to the 'how':
https://www.chelseaclock.com/blog/how-d ... clock-work.

Not that humans know everything - no one is saying that. But many things attributed only 'to god' have been shown to be natural causes. This shows that the more we know, the less god is needed to 'fill the gaps'. Maybe that's why god didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge: god realized if they knew enough, they'd be a lot less likely to be god's slaves?
Without God I wouldn't even exist, so all that comes with the life, is because God made it possible.
Can you prove this or is it merely an opinion?

All of this aside, the only reason to say 'god did it' to something unexplained to to feed 'the god ego' so many have, which justifies their faith.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11342
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 312 times
Been thanked: 357 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #6

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:30 pm ....
Thunder is caused by the rapid expansion of the air surrounding the path of a lightning bolt.
Yes, but what caused the rapid expansion of air, and what caused that… …I think it is lazy to stop just to that first step, it really doesn’t tell the cause, only how something happens.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:30 pm...A clockmaker from Nuremberg named Peter Henlein is typically credited with inventing the very first watch. He created one of these “clock watches” in the 15th century. As to the why, it's likely to tell time and organize the day. As to the 'how':...
I was not speaking of who invented it, but about, if you would find a random clock, you could know how it works, but not necessary who made (caused) it.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:30 pm
Without God I wouldn't even exist, so all that comes with the life, is because God made it possible.
Can you prove this or is it merely an opinion?
It is my belief, but, if God is not the original cause, what is?

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #7

Post by Diagoras »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:15 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:30 pm ....
Thunder is caused by the rapid expansion of the air surrounding the path of a lightning bolt.
Yes, but what caused the rapid expansion of air, and what caused that… …I think it is lazy to stop just to that first step, it really doesn’t tell the cause, only how something happens.
This is a case of shifting the goalposts. We're not debating the Argument from First Cause here. We're trying to understand the reasoning behind a belief that a god was the direct cause of that thunderbolt, or of a surgeon completing a successful surgery, or any of numerous other phenomena.

Without God I wouldn't even exist, so all that comes with the life, is because God made it possible.
You exist because your parents chose to exchange genetic material through sexual reproduction, and the resulting zygote started to divide through holoblastic cleavage to become a blastula. That's obviously a gross over-simplification of the very early stages of embryonic development, but my point is to show that our scientific knowledge is built upon people not being "lazy to stop just to that first step", but discovering and understanding each fundamental step in the process.

At no stage, whether it's epiboly, somitogenesis, or simply the transverse segmentation of the paraxial mesoderm, did scientists stop and say, "Hang on - this bit here must be where God does something."

I submit that it is in fact the theist who is being 'lazy' when he or she decides that 'God did it' rather than make an effort to understand something about the natural world.

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #8

Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:14 pm I believe, if I do something good, it is because of God and without Him I wouldn't do anything.
An odd belief. Got any reasonable evidence?


.

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #9

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:15 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:30 pm ....
Thunder is caused by the rapid expansion of the air surrounding the path of a lightning bolt.
Yes, but what caused the rapid expansion of air, and what caused that… …I think it is lazy to stop just to that first step, it really doesn’t tell the cause, only how something happens.
We know what caused the expansion of air, and what caused that….. What is really lazy is inventing a magical being that can do anything and using it to explain everything.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: God using nature, or just simply nature?

Post #10

Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:15 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:30 pm ....
Thunder is caused by the rapid expansion of the air surrounding the path of a lightning bolt.
Yes, but what caused the rapid expansion of air, and what caused that… …I think it is lazy to stop just to that first step, it really doesn’t tell the cause, only how something happens.

Here, from The Image

....................


.

Post Reply