How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1071

Post by otseng »

William wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:28 pm Why would the dead offspring of lambs and goats be buried when the instruction was to drain the blood and use said blood to mark doorposts, [pagan-like ritual] but for the household to eat the meat?
The sequence most likely would've been killing it, draining the blood, butchering it for the meat, then burying the bones. I think what you're getting at is if the burial originally was an entire intact body or if pieces of bones were buried? The paper doesn't give an indication either way.
Are we informed as to how many cities were involved in relation to the 600,000 - "probably in the millions" who became part of the alleged exodus?
Since Goshen was where the Hyksos lived, it would've most likely been from that area. And Avaris was the largest city in Goshen at that time.
brunumb wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:56 pm Many of those would have died over the decades they wandered around, so where are the graves/bones of all these people? Have none ever been found?
I think what you're getting at is why do we have bones of the sacrificed animals in Avaris but do not have bones of humans during the exodus through the wilderness. I think there's a couple of reasons. If they were buried in the wilderness, it would be a vast area to try to search for. In Avaris, it is a relatively small location to search. Also because it was a government financed excavation, it has been one of the best excavated sites of ancient Egypt. Also, burial in a tell has a more likelihood of being excavated than being buried out in the open wilderness.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1072

Post by William »

[Replying to otseng in post #1071]
I think what you're getting at is if the burial originally was an entire intact body or if pieces of bones were buried? The paper doesn't give an indication either way.
Then the paper is incomplete by omission and can be discarded [as evidence] on that account.
William: Are we informed as to how many cities were involved in relation to the 600,000 - "probably in the millions" who became part of the alleged exodus?
Since Goshen was where the Hyksos lived, it would've most likely been from that area. And Avaris was the largest city in Goshen at that time.
Was it large enough to house over one million people?

Image

This is an image of the Woodstock Festival, with an estimated 400,000 people in attendance. For your estimate we can double the number.
To feed and house all these apparent slaves of Egypt, the Israelites would have had to have had substantial land to house themselves as well as substantial farms in which to grow their food.
If they had these things, they are unlikely to have been slaves.

What did the Egyptians need so many slaves for?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1073

Post by otseng »

William wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:58 pm Then the paper is incomplete by omission and can be discarded [as evidence] on that account.
What omission are you referring to? Exactly how the bones were configured when they were excavated?
Since Goshen was where the Hyksos lived, it would've most likely been from that area. And Avaris was the largest city in Goshen at that time.
Was it large enough to house over one million people?

Image

This is an image of the Woodstock Festival, with an estimated 400,000 people in attendance. For your estimate we can double the number.
To feed and house all these apparent slaves of Egypt, the Israelites would have had to have had substantial land to house themselves as well as substantial farms in which to grow their food.
If they had these things, they are unlikely to have been slaves.

What did the Egyptians need so many slaves for?
I do not get the impression you've read my previous post on Goshen and any of the subsequent posts. The Hyksos lived in the entire Goshen area, not just in Avaris. I also explained the progression from entering the land of Goshen to ultimately becoming slaves.

As for the size of Goshen, it would've been around 900 sq miles. This is plenty of space for 2 million people. It would be equivalent to 12,500 sq feet per person.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1074

Post by William »

[Replying to otseng in post #1073]

My interest is in zooming in on any inconsistencies.

The picture of the large Woodstock crowd is to give a type of visual on the number involved in the alleged exodus.

I am only reading the post you make replying to my own, and am not interested in plowing through papers looking for relevant information as I figure if you think there is truth therein, and want others to know about it, you would simply share that relevant information.

If you do not want to do so, or are unwilling to point me to post you may have made prior to our particular interaction, so be it.

And yes - the question of the bones found as to whether they were whole skeletons or bits and pieces is relevant. I would have thought you would understand that.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1075

Post by otseng »

William wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:49 am My interest is in zooming in on any inconsistencies.

I am only reading the post you make replying to my own, and am not interested in plowing through papers looking for relevant information as I figure if you think there is truth therein, and want others to know about it, you would simply share that relevant information.
Sure, you can point out issues, but you have to understand what is my position. I've spent considerable time explaining my arguments already and do not want to rehash them again.

There's no need to read through a bunch of papers. All that is necessary is to read my previous posts. If you have questions after that or see issues with it, by all means attack them.
And yes - the question of the bones found as to whether they were whole skeletons or bits and pieces is relevant. I would have thought you would understand that.
I do understand that, but it's not relevant to my argument. Whether it is whole skeletons or partial skeleton, the fact remains that the majority of the bones are from sheeps and goats. And my only point is this archaeological evidence aligns with the Biblical account.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1076

Post by William »

[Replying to otseng in post #1075]
my only point is this archaeological evidence aligns with the Biblical account.
And why shouldn't it as it is very likely community dumping grounds for animal bones were in all in one place.
It seems hardly something which one can call evidence of the alleged exodus story being true.

This interaction branches back to the post where I wrote;
I am of the persuasion that what is written was taken from much older sources which were themselves fireside stories told to entertain and instruct and give insight and inspiration through analogy and by the time they were placed into written form, the stories themselves had come to be believed to be true accounts of historical significance, mixed in with actual true accounts of cultural heritage, to become almost indistinguishable from actually.
and you replied;
And what evidence do you have to support this hypothesis?
I see now that you brushed me off with a handwave re 'hypothesis' but even so - I stand firm in my reply;
It is a reasonable proposition, given what we know about human culture and flare for story-telling.
I will leave it at that.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1077

Post by otseng »

The Egyptian civilization has been one of the longest lasting civilizations in human history. In ancient times, it had been a powerhouse and dominated the entire Middle Eastern region for thousands of years.

"For almost 30 centuries—from its unification around 3100 B.C. to its conquest by Alexander the Great in 332 B.C.—ancient Egypt was the preeminent civilization in the Mediterranean world."
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient- ... ient-egypt

But, what caused it's eventual decline? There's no consensus on this.
The civilisation of ancient Egypt can be traced back in recognisable form to around 3000 BC. It was to endure for over three millennia and it is perhaps the most instantly recognisable of all ancient cultures today. The question of how it came to an end is a perennially popular one, but actually quite difficult to answer, as it is by no means agreed as to what constitutes 'the end' of Egypt as an ancient civilisation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/e ... d_01.shtml

Interestingly, the height of the Egyptian civilization was around the time of the early date of the Exodus.

"Around 1550 BCE, the New Kingdom period of Egyptian history began with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt and the restoration of centralized political control. This period was Egypt's most prosperous time and marked the peak of its power."
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ ... pt-article

Though there were a few last hurrahs after that (like the reign of Ramses II), it was a general state of decline after the reign of Amenhotep II.
Thutmose III expanded Egypt's army and wielded it with great success to consolidate the empire created by his predecessors. This resulted in a peak in Egypt's power and wealth during the reign of Amenhotep III. The term pharaoh, originally the name of the king's palace, became a form of address for the person who was king during his reign (c. 1479–1425 BC).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Kingdom_of_Egypt
(Though Wikipedia says Amenhotep III, this is incorrect. Amenhotep II was the one who succeeded Thutmose III.)
Amenhotep II, also called Amenophis II, king of ancient Egypt (reigned c. 1426–00 bce), son of Thutmose III. Ruling at the height of Egypt’s imperial era, he strove to maintain his father’s conquests by physical and military skills.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Amenhotep-II

The early date of the Exodus accounts for the turning point in Egyptian history with the mass departure of the Israelites, the loss of confidence in the power of the Pharaoh and the litany of Egyptian gods.
Looking at the big picture, Vandersleyen correctly critiques Amenhotep II's reign as unsuccessful, a time of decline, with a few exploits abroad, a few preserved memorials, and an almost complete absence of sources after the 9th year of his reign.

This connection between these two imperialistic pharaohs and Amun-Re is all the more critical when considering that a major religious crisis took place during the reign of Amenhotep II, which may have affected both the images of Amun throughout Egypt and the high priesthood of Amun. According to an inscription on a pink granite royal stele of Amenhotep II known as the Western Karnak Stele, "His majesty has commanded for his nobles-the officials of the royal court [the courtiers] who enter into [the palace] the servants [of] the good god—to destroy all of the images of the gods, their bodies [...] Amu[n]-Re." Garry Shaw bemoans that the destroying of the images of the gods has not been explained satisfactorily. Helck notes that the reading of the verb fh ("destroy, dismantle, crumble") seems certain, but that the precise meaning of the command is unclear, since the word normally means "dissolve, destroy." What both Egyptologists fail to explain candidly is that it would seem impossible for a pharaoh to issue a decree for his courtiers to destroy the statues of Egyptian gods that were in the temples, since the establishment of statues in the temples was a common practice during the dynastic period.
https://www.academia.edu/3219636/_2013_ ... th_Dynasty

With the loss of millions of workers, it would've also impacted the ability to do massive large scale construction as they had in the past. And coincidentally starting around this period, Pharaohs were all buried at the same location at Valley of the Kings, which is basically just tombs dug into a valley.

Image
Valley of the Kings, Arabic Wādī Al-Mulūk, also called Valley of the Tombs of the Kings or Arabic Wādī Bībān al-Mulūk, long narrow defile just west of the Nile River in Upper Egypt. It was part of the ancient city of Thebes and was the burial site of almost all the kings (pharaohs) of the 18th, 19th, and 20th dynasties (1539–1075 bce), from Thutmose I to Ramses X.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Valley-of-the-Kings
The Valley of the Kings (Arabic: وادي الملوك Wādī al-Mulūk; Coptic: ϫⲏⲙⲉ, romanized: džēme[1] Late Coptic: [ˈʃɪ.mæ]), also known as the Valley of the Gates of the Kings (Arabic: وادي أبواب الملوك Wādī Abwāb al-Mulūk),[2] is a valley in Egypt where, for a period of nearly 500 years from the 16th to 11th century BC, rock-cut tombs were excavated for the pharaohs and powerful nobles of the New Kingdom (the Eighteenth to the Twentieth Dynasties of Ancient Egypt).[3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_the_Kings

In the list of Egyptian pyramids in Wikipedia, the last entry is for Ahmose I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_pyramids

"This building program culminated in the construction of the last pyramid built by native Egyptian rulers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I

So, the Biblical account of the Exodus, particularly the early dating, accounts for the start of the decline of the power of the Pharaoh, power of religion, end of pyramid construction, decline of military power, contraction of Egyptian controlled territory, and the decline of power of the Egyptian civilization.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1078

Post by otseng »

After the 10th plague, Pharaoh let the people go.

Exod 12:30-32 (KJV)
30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for [there was] not a house where [there was] not one dead.
31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, [and] get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
32 Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.

The Israelites then left Egypt.

An interesting passage mentions "a mixed multitude" also went with them.

Exod 12:37-38 (KJV)
37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.

In Hebrew, the "mixed multitude" is "erev rav".

"Erev Rav (Hebrew: עֵרֶב רַב ‘êreḇ raḇ "mixed multitude") was a group that included Egyptians and others who had joined the Tribes of Israel on the Exodus."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erev_Rav

Other translations of Ex 12:38:

ERV - A great number of people who were not Israelites went with them, along with many sheep, cattle, and other livestock.

MSG - There was also a crowd of riffraff tagging along, not to mention the large flocks and herds of livestock.

NLT - A rabble of non-Israelites went with them, along with great flocks and herds of livestock.

UST - Many other people who were not Israelites went along with them. There was also a large amount of livestock, including flocks of sheep and goats and herds of cattle.

YLT - and a great rabble also hath gone up with them, and flock and herd--very much cattle.

They were later attributed to have influenced the Israelites to worship the golden calf.

"Their influence is said to have been involved in the golden calf and other incidents where the people questioned Moses and his laws."
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Erev_Rav

There are many theories who constituted the erev rav:
- Foreigners that intermarried with the Israelites
- Egyptians that were convinced of the power of Yahweh after the 10 plagues
- Other slaves who saw this as an opportunistic time to escape Egypt
- Non-Israelite proselytes

The term "erev rav" is even used today by modern Jews as a deragatory term.
When the Israelites left Egypt, they were accompanied by an ʿerev rav (Exodus 12:38). This obscure term has been interpreted in different ways throughout two millennia of Bible interpretation, both positively and negatively, and modern scholars still debate its exact meaning. The term survives in modern Jewish discourse as a slur against other Jews.
https://www.thetorah.com/article/erev-r ... f-meanings
The Erev Rav are those that appear to be Jews, but are imposters. They are not Torah observant (even if they might claim to be) and are, on the contrary, idolaters or atheists who push godless ideas. They are “leaders” that guide Jews astray, and inspire the transgression of Torah law.
https://www.mayimachronim.com/israels-g ... -erev-rav/

Myself, I believe the erev rav were for the most part comprised of the Hyksos. They would've been the group of non-Israelites that were closely associated with the Israelites (and most likely intermarried with) and worshipped pagan practices that led them to worship the golden calf.

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Evidence of the Exodus?

Post #1079

Post by Diogenes »

This appears to be a balanced approach to the evidence (or not) of the 'exodus.'
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 59d57cbb7/
"... it is convenient to start at the one fixed point on which virtually all modern scholars agree:
In about 1200 B.C. scores of agricultural villages appeared in the central hill country of Canaan.
....
Both the architecture of the houses and the pottery found in these villages are different from that found in earlier periods. The Bible tells us that when the Israelites came to Canaan, they settled in the hill country.
....
If these hilltop villages represent the emergence of Israel in Canaan, then -- according to the biblical chronology -- the exodus from Egypt would have occurred about 40 years earlier, in about 1240 B.C. And, indeed, that is the period to which most scholars who accept the Exodus as fact assign it.
There is much evidence to support a 13th-century exodus."

OTOH:
'"There was no real exodus. There was no real wilderness wandering," asserts William G. Dever, excavator of the ancient biblical city of Gezer (between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv), and former director of the Albright School of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem.
Dever's views are by no means universally accepted, but he is one of the most highly regarded biblical archaeologists in the world.'
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 59d57cbb7/
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Re: Evidence of the Exodus?

Post #1080

Post by otseng »

Diogenes wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 4:32 pm This appears to be a balanced approach to the evidence (or not) of the 'exodus.'
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 59d57cbb7/
"... it is convenient to start at the one fixed point on which virtually all modern scholars agree:
In about 1200 B.C. scores of agricultural villages appeared in the central hill country of Canaan.
....
Both the architecture of the houses and the pottery found in these villages are different from that found in earlier periods. The Bible tells us that when the Israelites came to Canaan, they settled in the hill country.
....
If these hilltop villages represent the emergence of Israel in Canaan, then -- according to the biblical chronology -- the exodus from Egypt would have occurred about 40 years earlier, in about 1240 B.C. And, indeed, that is the period to which most scholars who accept the Exodus as fact assign it.
There is much evidence to support a 13th-century exodus."
There are scholars who accept both the early date and the late date, even evangelical scholars. I accept there are evidence to support both, but I do believe the preponderance of evidence leans towards the early date. The claim that hill country villages all appear around 1200 BC probably is the strongest evidence for the late date, but I'll address that later when I get to the promised land conquest.
OTOH:
'"There was no real exodus. There was no real wilderness wandering," asserts William G. Dever, excavator of the ancient biblical city of Gezer (between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv), and former director of the Albright School of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem.
Dever's views are by no means universally accepted, but he is one of the most highly regarded biblical archaeologists in the world.'
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 59d57cbb7/
Yes, there's a split among scholars that the Israelites either arose internally in Canaan or from an exodus from Egypt.

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