How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1041

Post by Diogenes »

otseng wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:56 pm
Diogenes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 6:28 pm I find it surprising and inexplicable that Young's would translate the word as "beetle," for two reasons. First, most translations say "flies." Second, flies torture livestock as well as people, whereas the scarab beetle was sacred and actually beneficial.
As I mentioned, flies is not in the Hebrew. The only word is "swarm" which is arob in Hebrew. Though it is true practically all other translations use the word "flies", a swarm of beetles is as reasonable as a swarm of flies.

There is also no mention in the text of livestock being tortured in any translation. The only thing mentioned is an abundance of them. So an abundance of any insect would be a nuisance
....
So, in the 'Fifth Plauge' the livestock just died from unknown magical causes... nothing to do with flies or other pests?
For if you refuse to let them go and still hold them, behold, the hand of the Lord will fall with a very severe plague upon your livestock that are in the field, the horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.
The very word 'plague' suggests some kind of pestilence, yet there was no discomfort? Isn't one of the translations for the Hebrew word for "plague," "pestilence?"
https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2020/08/0 ... ce-plague/
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1042

Post by otseng »

Diogenes wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:01 am So, in the 'Fifth Plauge' the livestock just died from unknown magical causes... nothing to do with flies or other pests?
In the text, it doesn't specifically say how the livestock died.

Exod 9:3 (KJV)
3 Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which [is] in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: [there shall be] a very grievous murrain.

Murrain in Hebrew is deber, which means pestilence, plague, cattle disease.
For if you refuse to let them go and still hold them, behold, the hand of the Lord will fall with a very severe plague upon your livestock that are in the field, the horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.
The very word 'plague' suggests some kind of pestilence, yet there was no discomfort? Isn't one of the translations for the Hebrew word for "plague," "pestilence?"
https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2020/08/0 ... ce-plague/
Well, the livestock did die, so that would be considered discomforting.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1043

Post by TRANSPONDER »

otseng wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:08 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:48 am Otseng, mate, do you seriously think that anyone is going to see that as even 'fitting' the Exodus into Pharonic Egypt let alone serving as evidence? I don't think it even needs me to post a rebuttal. Mid, all this Egyptology is fascinating.
Could you please stop addressing me as mate, chap, etc?
Why, is that against the rules, old sausage? And since you seem to have the 'respect' gambit floating slowly to the surface of your rhetoric, I think you owe me an apology for twisting my argument so disrespectfully and then trying to pull Moderator rank (after I warned you not to, as well) rather than admit your error.
No, I'm not present presenting the plagues as evidence that they actually happened. But I am presenting it as evidence that the plagues, whether they literally happened or not, is an attack on the Egyptian gods.
Ok I get that. I'm inclined to leave you to discuss the nature and purpose of the plagues with someone else, since I'd just accept that story - writers would have plagues of the kind they understood, Locusts, flies, beetles or midges. Also whatever the plagues were aimed at (Gods, the social structure or economy or the political infrastructure), the point was to put pressure on the Pharoah to release the Hebrews.

From my point of view this is utterly irrelevant since Pharaoh was inclined to let the Hebrews go but the Lord hardened his heart so he changed his mind. The point being that He had to have the opportunity to show off His power so the Hebrews would worship Him as apparently they didn't already.

On top of which I see no reason to even consider the story seriously. I suppose it is mildly interesting to debate what the writers actually had in mind by these plagues, but I see no reason to suppose any of it actually happened, and I have explained how and why I think the evidence points to a post 11th date and probably Exilic. Apart from an effort to fiddle it by claiming it a Moses - date story glossed to update the terms which I refuted by pointing to the anachronistic context of the avoidance of the Philistines (which you appear to have ignored) you haven't done a thing to counter this evidence.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1044

Post by otseng »

Seventh plague - Destruction of crops through hail

Exod 9:1
Behold, about this time tomorrow I will cause very heavy hail to fall, such as never has been in Egypt from the day it was founded until now.

Exod 9:25-26
25 The hail struck down everything that was in the field in all the land of Egypt, both man and beast. And the hail struck down every plant of the field and broke every tree of the field.
26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the people of Israel were, was there no hail.

Plagues seven and eight destroyed the agricultural crops. The god of agriculture and fertility was Min.

Image
As with Osiris, Min was an agricultural god - at Medinet Habu, Ramses III is shown scything a sheaf of wheat for the Festival of Min. There are also scenes of pharaohs ceremonially hoeing the ground and watering the fields under the supervision of Min.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/min.htm
Min, in ancient Egyptian religion, a god of fertility and harvest, embodiment of the masculine principle; he was also worshipped as the Lord of the Eastern Desert.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Min-Egyptian-god
At the beginning of the harvest season, Min’s statue was carried through the fields in a festival known as “the departure of Min”. Min blessed the harvest and the people held games in his honour, most of which involved the menfolk climbing a huge pole (which had a connection with fertility not unlike the maypole).
https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/min/
Min was a primeval god of Koptos (or Coptos) and revered as being God of Fertility and the harvest.
https://www.historyembalmed.org/egyptian-gods/min.htm
Min In Egyptian mythology, god of fertility, rain, and crops. Min was honored in harvest festivals, during which the first-cut sheaf of the harvest was offered to him by the king.
https://occult-world.com/min/

The seventh plague was also a statement against the goddess of the sky, Nut.

Image
Nut /ˈnʊt/[2] (Ancient Egyptian: Nwt, Coptic: Ⲛⲉ), also known by various other transcriptions, is the goddess of the sky, stars, cosmos, mothers, astronomy, and the universe in the ancient Egyptian religion. She was seen as a star-covered nude woman arching over the Earth,[3] or as a cow. She was depicted wearing the water-pot sign (nw) that identifies her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess)

Nut was also associated with protecting the dead.
Because of her role in saving Osiris, Nut was seen as a friend and protector of the dead.

She was often painted on the inside lid of the sarcophagus, protecting the deceased.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess)

Hail destroyed the crops in Egypt, except for the land of Goshen.

Exod 9:25-26 (KJV)
25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that [was] in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.
26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel [were], was there no hail.

This time, Pharaoh said he sinned.

Exod 9:27 (KJV)
27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD [is] righteous, and I and my people [are] wicked.

But shortly afterwards, he changed his mind and made his heart heavier again.

Exod 9:34 (KJV)
34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Eighth plague - Destruction of crops through locusts

Exod 10:4-5 (KJV)
4 Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, tomorrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:
5 And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field:

In additional to Min and Nut, this plague was probably also targeting Set, the god of the desert.

Image
Seth (Set), son of Geb (Earth) and Nut (sky), brother of Osiris, was god of the desert, foreign lands, thunderstorms, eclipses, and earthquakes. Seth was a powerful and often frightening deity, however he was also a patron god of the pharaohs, particularly Ramses the Great. He protected the dead on the way to the Afterlife.
https://egyptianmuseum.org/deities-seth

It was desert locusts that devoured the land.
Desert Locusts are ravenous eaters. Usually found in semi-arid and arid deserts of East Africa, the Near East and South-West Asia, they can form large swarms and pose a major threat to food security and local livelihoods.
https://www.fao.org/resources/digital-r ... ocusts/en/
Titanic swarms of desert locusts resembling dark storm clouds are descending ravenously on the Horn of Africa. They're roving through croplands and flattening farms in a devastating salvo experts are calling an unprecedented threat to food security. On the ground, subsistence planters can do nothing but watch — staring up with horror and at their fields in dismay.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... ey-exactly
The desert locust (Schistocerca gregaria) is a notorious species. Found in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia, this species inhabits an area of about six million square miles, or 30 countries, during a quiet period. During a plague, when large swarms descend upon a region, however, these locusts can spread out across some 60 countries and cover a fifth of Earth's land surface. Desert locust plagues threaten the economic livelihood of a tenth of humans.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ts/locusts

This plague affected all of Egypt, including Goshen.

Exod 10:14-15 (KJV)
14 And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous [were they]; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.
15 For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.

During the Second Intermediate Period, Set was the god of the Hyksos. So, it showed Yahweh was more powerful than the god of the Hyksos.
During the Second Intermediate Period (1650–1550 BCE), a group of Near Eastern peoples, known as the Hyksos (literally, "rulers of foreign lands") gained control of Lower Egypt, and ruled the Nile Delta, from Avaris. They chose Set, originally Upper Egypt's chief god, the god of foreigners and the god they found most similar to their own chief god, Hadad, as their patron[citation needed]. Set then became worshiped as the chief god once again. The Hyksos King Apophis is recorded as worshiping Set exclusively, as described in the following passage:

[He] chose for his Lord the god Seth. He did not worship any other deity in the whole land except Seth.
— Papyrus Sallier 1 (Apophis and Sekenenre)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1045

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Look, I've got a bit of a problem here. While all this stuff about Seth is interesting. you are making no case. It's just preaching.

Relating to the Rules
5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim.

This isn't evidence that the plagues were real let alone aimed at any particular Egyptian god.

I know it says that problems should be discussed with the official, but what chance do we have complaining about a cop to a cop? This is extensive wasting of our time (though informative Egyptology :D ) this is cl;aims without substance, assertions without evidence and claiming relations without any justification for it. I'd say if there was a moderator of Moderators, she should tell you to get relevant evidence.

And I'd still like an apology for you distorting my argument and then pulling the Moderator card when I called you on it.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1046

Post by The Tanager »

Moderator Comment
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:58 amWell, that is disappointing. Instead of taking on board a legitimate request for you not to twist my arguments and not waste all our time, you pull moderator rank. Well I think it discredits you rather than me. And your post about various gods and more than vague resemblances to something in the Moses story. I'll address relevant points, but not stuff like that.


Please refrain from responding to moderator actions within the thread (see rule #16). Here is the process for responding to moderator actions: viewtopic.php?p=544925#544925.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1047

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #1047]
Why, is that against the rules, old sausage?
Moderator Comment

Come on now ... please keep it civil. "old sausage" is probably worse than mate or chap. Just use the poster's handle to avoid any perceived (or implied) insults.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1048

Post by Diogenes »

otseng wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:00 am

Image
Interesting sculpture. It looks like it was made from old sausage.
Image
... and speaking of old sausage...
Image
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1049

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #1049]
Look, I've got a bit of a problem here. While all this stuff about Seth is interesting. you are making no case. It's just preaching.

I know it says that problems should be discussed with the official, but what chance do we have complaining about a cop to a cop? This is extensive wasting of our time (though informative Egyptology :D ) this is cl;aims without substance, assertions without evidence and claiming relations without any justification for it. I'd say if there was a moderator of Moderators, she should tell you to get relevant evidence.

And I'd still like an apology for you distorting my argument and then pulling the Moderator card when I called you on it.
Moderator Comment

Can you please move dialog on issues related to moderation to PM to work out the issues? There are multiple moderators who can help address any issues outside of the normal debate dialog. Also, there are specific rules relating to Preaching that describe what is, and is not, considered to be in that category.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1050

Post by otseng »

Ninth plague - Darkness

Exod 10:21 (KJV)
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness [which] may be felt.

This plague was against one of the most important gods, Ra, god of the sun.

Image
Ra (/rɑː/;[1] Ancient Egyptian: rꜥ or rˤ; also transliterated rˤw /ˈɾiːʕuw/; cuneiform: 𒊑𒀀 ri-a or 𒊑𒅀ri-ia)[2] or Re (/reɪ/; Coptic: ⲣⲏ, romanized: Rē) was the ancient Egyptian deity of the sun. By the Fifth Dynasty, in the 25th and 24th centuries BC, he had become one of the most important gods in ancient Egyptian religion, identified primarily with the noon-day sun. Ra was believed to rule in all parts of the created world: the sky, the Earth, and the underworld.[3] He was the god of the sun, order, kings and the sky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra
According to scholar Richard H. Wilkinson, Ra is "arguably Egypt’s most important deity" not only because of his association with the life-giving sun but also through his influence on the development of later gods (205).
https://www.worldhistory.org/Ra_(Egyptian_God)/

Ra also had a significant role in the underworld and judgment.
In the New Kingdom work known as the Book of the Dead, the soul must stand in judgment before Osiris who weighs the soul’s heart against the white feather of truth (the feather of Ma'at, goddess of harmony and balance) and, if the scales remain even, the soul is allowed to proceed on (after Osiris confers with the Forty-Two Judges and other gods); if the heart is heavier than the feather, the soul would cease to exist. Ra was considered present at the judgement in his form as Ra-Osiris or invisibly as inspiration for Osiris’ just decision.
https://www.worldhistory.org/Ra_(Egyptian_God)/

Darkness was all over Egypt except for the children of Israel.

Exod 10:23 (KJV)
23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart after this plague.

Exod 10:27 (KJV)
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Tenth plague - Death of firstborn

Exod 11:5 (NIV)
5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.

This was an attack on Pharaoh himself.

Exod 4:23 (NIV)
Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’ ”

Pharaoh was considered to be god on earth.

"As supreme ruler of the people, the pharaoh was considered a god on earth, the intermediary between the gods and the people."
https://www.worldhistory.org/pharaoh/

Image
Death of the Pharaoh's Firstborn Son (Lawrence Alma-Tadema)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... rn_son.jpg

It was also an attack on his lineage of rule.

"The Egyptians also attached significance to primogeniture and birthright. The death of Pharaoh and the Egyptians' firstborn sons at the first Passover is direct recompense for God's identification of Israel as his own firstborn."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firstborn_(Judaism)

The only ones that would be spared would be the households with blood on their doorposts.

Exod 12:7 (KJV)
7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

It was the start of the institution of the Passover.

Exod 12:14 (KJV)
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

And the Jews have been commemorating this event ever since.
Passover, also called Pesach (/ˈpɛsɑːx, ˈpeɪ-/;[2] Biblical Hebrew: חַג הַפֶּסַח, romanized: Ḥag hapPesaḥ), is a major Jewish holiday that celebrates the exodus of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt

the Passover Seder is one of the most widely observed rituals in Judaism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

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