How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1031

Post by brunumb »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:36 am
as a p.s I have a rather jaundiced view of the 'natural explanation' of Bible miracles.
On the other hand I think that most of the 'miraculous' events like the plagues, the flood and so on, are based on actual events. That they happened just as described in the Bible is very unlikely, but significant natural events would have left an indelible impression on the minds of ancient, superstitious people. Over time, with the telling and re-telling of the stories, elements of the involvement of the gods crept in to afford some sort of satisfactory explanation for the audience or were adopted to push some religious agenda.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1032

Post by TRANSPONDER »

That's possible. I am willing fo be corrected by some papyrus or inscription turning up one day mentioning 10 plagues or even an exodus of Asiatics in the 18th dynasty. Right now I do not rule out ingenious plot -construction.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1033

Post by otseng »

Third plague - Gnats (lice) from dust of earth

Exod 8:16
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, 'Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, so that it may become gnats in all the land of Egypt.'"

This plague was most likely against Geb, god of the earth.

Image
To the ancient Egyptians, Geb was the god and personification of the earth. He was unusual because he was a male earth deity, while most ancient cultures regarded the earth as female.

Worship of Geb was widespread and various legends developed about him, this is why he is often depicted in Egyptian wall art.

Two other titles came from the fact that Geb fathered the Osirian gods: Chief of the gods, Father of the gods.
https://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/geb.html

Geb played a role in weighing the heart during judgment in the afterlife.
Another of Geb’s roles comes from his position as the god of the earth. He had an important function in the path of an Egyptian soul to the afterlife. After the burial of the dead, the Egyptians believed that Geb played a part in the souls journey. He was present at the ceremony where the gods weighed the heart of a dead person. If the judges decided the person was righteous, Geb released the soul from the earth to continue his/her journey.
https://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/geb.html
When a mortal's heart is weighed in the halls of Ma'at, Geb sits among the Gods in judgment. Those burdened with guilt and regret are claimed by Geb and dragged through the earthen crust to the underworld. Hearts free of such heaviness are taught words of power and ascend to the sky.
https://smite.fandom.com/wiki/Geb

The magicians were not able to replicate this plague.

Exod 8:18-19 (KJV)
18 And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This [is] the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Fourth plague - Swarm of insects

Exod 8:21 (ESV)
Or else, if you will not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants and your people, and into your houses. And the houses of the Egyptians shall be filled with swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand.

In the Hebrew, it does not have "flies", but only "swarms". So, it only implies some swarm of insects.

The word is used in Psalms twice and it is translated as "divers sorts of flies".

Psa 78:45 (KJV)
He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.

In YLT, it is translated as beetle.

Exod 8:21 (YLT)
for, if thou art not sending My people away, lo, I am sending against thee, and against thy servants, and against thy people, and against thy houses, the beetle, and the houses of the Egyptians have been full of the beetle, and also the ground on which they are.

Beetle worship, particularly scarabs (dung beetle), was dominant in ancient Egypt.
Scarab, Latin scarabaeus, in ancient Egyptian religion, important symbol in the form of the dung beetle (Scarabaeus sacer), which lays its eggs in dung balls fashioned through rolling. This beetle was associated with the divine manifestation of the early morning sun, Khepri, whose name was written with the scarab hieroglyph and who was believed to roll the disk of the morning sun over the eastern horizon at daybreak. Since the scarab hieroglyph, Kheper, refers variously to the ideas of existence, manifestation, development, growth, and effectiveness, the beetle itself was a favourite form used for amulets in all periods of Egyptian history.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/scarab
Scarabs were popular amulets and impression seals in ancient Egypt. They survive in large numbers and, through their inscriptions and typology, they are an important source of information for archaeologists and historians of the ancient world. They also represent a significant body of ancient art.

For reasons that are not clear (although likely connected to the religious significance of the Egyptian god Khepri), amulets in the form of scarab beetles had become enormously popular in Ancient Egypt by the early Middle Kingdom (approx. 2000 BCE) and remained popular for the rest of the pharaonic period and beyond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarab_(artifact)

"For the Egyptians, it's scarabs, scarabs, scarabs," says Michael Wall, curator of entomology and vice president of research for the San Diego Natural History Museum,
https://www.baltimoresun.com/sdut-museu ... story.html
To Egyptians, at any rate, the similarities between dung beetles and the sun's cycle were striking enough that the boy king Tutankhamun incorporated the scarab god into his throne name, Nebkheperure. Throughout the museum's King Tut exhibit, the image of the scarab appears in hieroglyphics of Tut's name, and as elaborately wrought ornamentation on a gilded throne, tomb and chariot.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/sdut-museu ... story.html

Image
Khepri (Egyptian: ḫprj, also transliterated Khepera, Kheper, Khepra, Chepri) is a scarab-faced god in ancient Egyptian religion who represents the rising or morning sun. By extension, he can also represent creation and the renewal of life.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri

Khepri played a role in weighing the heart in the afterlife and a scarab amulet was placed on top of the mummified person's heart to prepare for the day of judgment.
A Heart Scarab Amulet was placed upon the chest inscribed with Khepri’s name, and during the mummification process, it was believed that the amulet would be infused with the weight of the deceased’s choices in life.

Upon facing judgment, the deceased’s Heart Scarab Amulet would be weighed against the feather of Maat. If the amulet weighed less than the feather, then the deceased’s soul would be allowed to make its way into the afterlife.
https://www.timelessmyths.com/gods/egyptian/khepri/
Scarab amulets’ powers of rebirth and renewal were utilized to aid the dead and they could either be placed in the tomb or within the deceased’s mummy wrappings, particularly atop the heart. The heart was very significant for the ancient Egyptians, as they believed it to be the seat of the mind. When an ancient Egyptian died, it was thought that their heart would be weighed against a feather by the funerary jackal god Anubis before a panel of forty-two judging deities at the threshold of the netherworld. If the heart was lighter than the feather, the deceased would pass to the next life successfully. If it was not, he or she would then be devoured on site by a hybrid hippopotamus monster and cease to exist for eternity.
https://archaeologicalmuseum.jhu.edu/st ... rt-scarab/

Pharoah's heart was heavy as this time too.

Ex 8:31-32
31 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms [of flies] from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one.
32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

The dung beetle actually has interesting scientific ties with the heavenly bodies. It uses the sun, moon, and stars to find its way around.
Dung beetles like the scarab are incredible navigators that actually use the sun as guidance when moving their quarries. Rolling the dung ball along, the beetle will periodically stop, climb atop its prize, look around to orient itself, and climb back down and start pushing the ball once more.

When the sun goes down, the dung beetles can use the moon to navigate. But what if there’s no moon? In 2013 scientists went out on a moonless night and put little hats on some beetles to obscure their vision and discovered, rather incredibly, that the critters are using the Milky Way to orient themselves, the only known instance in the animal kingdom. Without the hats, individuals navigated perfectly fine. Strap an adorable little hat on a dung beetle, though, and it stumbles around like a drunkard.
https://www.wired.com/2014/07/fantastic ... e-worship/

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1034

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Otseng, mate, do you seriously think that anyone is going to see that as even 'fitting' the Exodus into Pharonic Egypt let alone serving as evidence? I don't think it even needs me to post a rebuttal. Mid, all this Egyptology is fascinating.

"Mars rover and unmanned drone 'Mendancity' and 'Spenthrift' sent back film of a martian dust storm".

"I knew it! They have dust storms in the Egyptian desert. This proves that the Martian Aztecs built pyramids on Mars".

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1035

Post by otseng »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:48 am Otseng, mate, do you seriously think that anyone is going to see that as even 'fitting' the Exodus into Pharonic Egypt let alone serving as evidence? I don't think it even needs me to post a rebuttal. Mid, all this Egyptology is fascinating.
Could you please stop addressing me as mate, chap, etc?

No, I'm not present presenting the plagues as evidence that they actually happened. But I am presenting it as evidence that the plagues, whether they literally happened or not, is an attack on the Egyptian gods.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1036

Post by Diogenes »

otseng wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 7:21 am Third plague - Gnats (lice) from dust of earth

Exod 8:16
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, 'Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, so that it may become gnats in all the land of Egypt.'"

This plague was most likely against Geb, god of the earth.

Image
This image shows the female, Nut, the sky goddess holding up the heavens, supported by Shu.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nut-Egyptian-goddess
Geb is on the ground. How anyone could confuse lice or gnats with the sacred Scarab beetle is quite beyond me.
https://www.pest-help.com/pests/fleas/f ... s-vs-lice/

The authors obviously could distinguish locusts from gnats and lice, although why gnats and lice get confused is puzzling. Gnats fly, lice do not have wings and they neither jump or fly. This makes no sense as history, but with myths, the details are less important and get confused over time.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1037

Post by otseng »

Diogenes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:43 pm How anyone could confuse lice or gnats with the sacred Scarab beetle is quite beyond me.
Did you read my post correctly? I talked about the third and fourth plagues. The third referred to gnats (lice) from dust of earth. The fourth referred to swarm of insects (most likely beetles). These two are separate plagues.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1038

Post by Diogenes »

otseng wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:10 pm
Diogenes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:43 pm How anyone could confuse lice or gnats with the sacred Scarab beetle is quite beyond me.
Did you read my post correctly? I talked about the third and fourth plagues. The third referred to gnats (lice) from dust of earth. The fourth referred to swarm of insects (most likely beetles). These two are separate plagues.
Yes, I could have been confused and careless as well, but it is certainly clear Exodus records the third and fourth plagues separately. Let's go back to your specific quote:
In YLT, it is translated as beetle.

Exod 8:21 (YLT)
for, if thou art not sending My people away, lo, I am sending against thee, and against thy servants, and against thy people, and against thy houses, the beetle, and the houses of the Egyptians have been full of the beetle, and also the ground on which they are.

Beetle worship, particularly scarabs (dung beetle), was dominant in ancient Egypt.
I find it surprising and inexplicable that Young's would translate the word as "beetle," for two reasons. First, most translations say "flies." Second, flies torture livestock as well as people, whereas the scarab beetle was sacred and actually beneficial.
Dung beetles' benefits to livestock go beyond pasture health. Manure is the breeding ground and incubator for horn and face flies, two economically important pests of cattle. As dung beetles feed, they compete with the fly larvae for food and physically damage the flies' eggs.
https://www.beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_beetle_mania
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1039

Post by otseng »

Diogenes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 6:28 pm I find it surprising and inexplicable that Young's would translate the word as "beetle," for two reasons. First, most translations say "flies." Second, flies torture livestock as well as people, whereas the scarab beetle was sacred and actually beneficial.
As I mentioned, flies is not in the Hebrew. The only word is "swarm" which is arob in Hebrew. Though it is true practically all other translations use the word "flies", a swarm of beetles is as reasonable as a swarm of flies.

There is also no mention in the text of livestock being tortured in any translation. The only thing mentioned is an abundance of them. So an abundance of any insect would be a nuisance.

Exod 8:20-22 (KJV)
20 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and present yourself to Pharaoh, as he goes out to the water, and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD, "Let my people go, that they may serve me.
21 Or else, if you will not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants and your people, and into your houses. And the houses of the Egyptians shall be filled with swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand.
22 But on that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, where my people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there, that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.

Exod 8:20-22 (YLT)
20 And Jehovah saith unto Moses, 'Rise early in the morning, and station thyself before Pharaoh, lo, he is going out to the waters, and thou hast said unto him, Thus said Jehovah, Send My people away, and they serve Me;
21 for, if thou art not sending My people away, lo, I am sending against thee, and against thy servants, and against thy people, and against thy houses, the beetle, and the houses of the Egyptians have been full of the beetle, and also the ground on which they are.
22 'And I have separated in that day the land of Goshen, in which My people are staying, that the beetle is not there, so that thou knowest that I am Jehovah in the midst of the land,

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1040

Post by otseng »

Fifth plague - Death of livestock

Exod 9:3
behold, the hand of the LORD will fall with a very severe plague upon your livestock that are in the field, the horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fara ... useum).jpg
The Apis bull was an important sacred animal to the ancient Egyptians. As with the other sacred beasts Apis' importance increased over the centuries.

Auguste Mariette's excavation of the Serapeum of Saqqara revealed the tombs of more than sixty animals, ranging from the time of Amenhotep III to the end of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Originally, each animal was buried in a separate tomb with a chapel built above it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)
Mnevis (Ancient Greek: Μνέυις, Coptic: ⲉⲙⲛⲉⲩⲓ)[1] is the Hellenized name of an ancient Egyptian bull god which had its centre of worship at Heliopolis, and was known to the ancient Egyptians as Mer-wer or Nem-wer.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnevis
four different bull cults dedicated to Montu were known in earlier times in Upper Egypt, and it seems that the Buchis was the result of their syncretism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchis

The popular goddess Hathor was often depicted as a cow.

Image
Hathor (Ancient Egyptian: ḥwt-ḥr, lit. 'House of Horus', Ancient Greek: Ἁθώρ Hathōr, Coptic: ϩⲁⲑⲱⲣ) was a major goddess in ancient Egyptian religion who played a wide variety of roles. As a sky deity, she was the mother or consort of the sky god Horus and the sun god Ra, both of whom were connected with kingship, and thus she was the symbolic mother of their earthly representatives, the pharaohs. She was one of several goddesses who acted as the Eye of Ra, Ra's feminine counterpart, and in this form she had a vengeful aspect that protected him from his enemies. Her beneficent side represented music, dance, joy, love, sexuality, and maternal care, and she acted as the consort of several male deities and the mother of their sons. These two aspects of the goddess exemplified the Egyptian conception of femininity. Hathor crossed boundaries between worlds, helping deceased souls in the transition to the afterlife.

Hathor was often depicted as a cow, symbolizing her maternal and celestial aspect, although her most common form was a woman wearing a headdress of cow horns and a sun disk. She could also be represented as a lioness, cobra, or sycamore tree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor
Hathor was one of the forty-two state gods and goddesses of Egypt, and one of the most popular and powerful.
https://egyptianmuseum.org/deities-hathor

Hathor also played a role in the afterlife.
Given her ubiquity in classical sources, it is not surprising that Hathor also played an important role in the extensive Egyptian myths surrounding the afterlife. Specifically, she was thought to provide hope, sustenance and succor to the souls of the dead:
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hathor

During the plague, only Egyptian livestock was affected. Pharaoh continued to make his heart heavy.

Exod 9:6-7 (KJV)
6 And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.
7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Sixth plague - boils

Exod 9:9
It shall become fine dust over all the land of Egypt, and become boils breaking out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt."

Egypt was the first civilization to have developed medicine. With this plague that affected them physically, they were not able to rely on their medicine to heal them.
In this burgeoning civilisation, a role for doctors emerged and the Egyptians were the first people to develop a medical profession. The first of these physicians was Imhotep, a man who would go on to become a God.

Sir William Osler described Imhotep as ‘the first figure of a physician to stand out clearly from the mists of antiquity’. His medical practices deviated from the use of magic and prayer that other Egyptian healers used and were remarkably advanced for the time.
https://www.pastmedicalhistory.co.uk/im ... physician/
Traditions from long after Imhotep's death treated him as a great author of wisdom texts[3] and especially as a physician. No text from his lifetime mentions these capacities and no text mentions his name in the first 1,200 years following his death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep
Imhotep's best known writings were medical text. As a physician, Imhotep is believed to have been the author of the Edwin Smith Papyrus in which more than 90 anatomical terms and 48 injuries are described. He may have also founded a school of medicine in Memphis, a part of his cult center possibly known as "Asklepion, which remained famous for two thousand years. All of this occurred some 2,200 years before the Western Father of Medicine Hippocrates was born.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/imhotep.htm

Boils was probably also a swipe at Isis, one of the most popular goddesses.

Image
Isis is an ancient Egyptian goddess who became the most popular and enduring of all the Egyptian deities. Her name comes from the Egyptian Eset, ("the seat") which referred to her stability and also the throne of Egypt as she was considered the mother of every pharaoh through the king's association with Horus, Isis' son.
https://www.worldhistory.org/isis/

She was associated with healing.

"she was a principal deity in rites connected with the dead; as magical healer, she cured the sick and brought the deceased to life; and as mother, she was a role model for all women."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Isis-Egyptian-goddess

"Isis was the supreme sorceress and healer of the Egyptian pantheon, a devoted wife and mother."
https://mythopedia.com/topics/isis

"An Egyptian Goddess of magic, fertility, and healing, Isis was as one of the most powerful deities in all of ancient Egypt."
https://magickandalchemy.com/goddess-series-isis/

Exod 9:11-12 (KJV)
11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians.
12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

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