How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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otseng
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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #21

Post by otseng »

Mithrae wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:30 am Atheism and secularism also provide no guidance at all, and leave the door open to philosophies justifying whatever horrendous things one wants.
I agree atheism and secularism provide no moral guidance at all.
Mithrae wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am I think it made sense, of a sort, for believers to treat the bible as somehow 'inspired' or authoritative even though obviously errant, when it was the best available (or at least not laughably far out of contention for it). "God must be guiding us, and this is the best we've got - contradictions, false prophecies and all - so we've got to treat it as God's guidance and make the most of it"; not just a vaguely reasonable attitude, but one which may have contributed greatly to the culture of academic excellence among Jews and to conversionary Protestants' propagation of literacy, civic associations and ultimately the spread of democracy around the world.
Agree with this as well.
But in the 21st century, there just doesn't seem to be any obvious area in which the bible is even a remotely plausible contender for "the best we've got" any more; factually, predictively, morally, socially, psychologically... :?
I'd disagree with this. It'd be interesting to debate this, but perhaps for another time.

Going back to the courtroom analogy, it would actually be suspicious if testimonies between people were exactly alike. We do not expect two people to recall an event with the exact same details. If they did, most likely there was collusion. So, contradictions are to be expected.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #22

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
otseng wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:35 am From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

I do not trust the bible. I trust my Lord (Jaheshua, the Holy one and Holy Spirit of God). HE is the authority for Christians (not a book). HE is the Word of God (not a book). I have always taken everything written in the bible with a grain of salt, unless or until my Lord confirms or explains what is written to me. How else could a person know what is true, what is false, what laws were given - NOT because they were true from the beginning, but because the hearts of the people were too hard to hear and follow what was true from the beginning?

**

No one ever taught me (growing up) that the bible was the word of God or inerrant, and my Lord certainly does not teach that. My faith has NEVER been based upon that book. That book is not the Rock upon which to base one's faith. Christ is the Rock upon WHOM to base ones' faith, so that when the winds and the rains come, that house/faith will stand. As I think Otseng pointed out on the other thread, many people whose faith depends upon the bible and it being inerrant, lose their faith when that book is shown to have errors in it. Build your faith on an unstable and erroneous foundation, then all someone has to do is knock out that foundation, and the faith falls with it. Unless one comes to Christ, builds their faith upon Him, upon the TRUTH.
In Christian theology, God has revealed himself to man through general revelation and special revelation. General revelation is primarily the revelation of God through nature. And special revelation is primarily through the Bible. There is no need for either of these to be "perfect" in order to point to God.
You might mean something different by the word 'reveal', but God doesn't reveal Himself to man through the bible. God reveals Himself to man through Christ. Even "the bible" records Christ saying that:

No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.

If you really know me, you will know my Father as well.


I agree with you that something does not need to be perfect in order to point to God. An imperfect person can point to God, though I'm not sure how an imperfect person could reveal God (or why a person would trust all that person might say about God). But we don't need to rely upon an imperfect person or an imperfect book... because we have Christ: the Truth of God, the Word of God, the PERFECT image and reflection of God.


We have been GIVEN a perfect image and word of God: Christ Jaheshua.

One major barrier I believe is the temptation to idolize the Bible. The Bible is not God. It's not something to be worshiped or idolized. The purpose of the Bible is to lead us to God, it is not God itself.


Certainly the bible is not to be idolized and it is not God.

But where do you get that the purpose of the bible is to lead people to God?

Does it actually do that?

I mean, the scriptures did not lead people to Christ. Only God could do that, right?

"You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify to me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."



In a sense, I believe we have mythologized the Bible to be beyond what it actually is.


No doubt.

It is not all inspired, despite what men teach. Inspired meaning given 'in spirit'. Some books are inspired - those given in spirit (the Psalms, the Prophets, Moses, Revelation). The gospels are not inspired though. The gospels are testimonial accounts to Christ (at least one firsthand, the gospel of "John", and some second hand, as Luke states about his account). It is not the Word of God, despite what men teach. Christ is the Word of God. It is not error-free. It even refers to the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8) handling the law falsely, as well as Christ stating 'woe to you scribes.'

**

The bible can give those who yet walk by sight something to SEE. Something that some/many need, even if just at the start. But remember that we are called to walk by faith (and faith is based not upon what is seen, but upon what is heard. Not heard from other men, but heard from Christ, from God). Peter was blessed for his faith when he heard and believed God (who revealed to him that Jaheshua was the Christ, the Son of God). Peter did not learn that from men, but from God.



Peace again to you, and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #23

Post by JoeyKnothead »

otseng wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 am
Mithrae wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:30 am Atheism and secularism also provide no guidance at all, and leave the door open to philosophies justifying whatever horrendous things one wants.
I agree atheism and secularism provide no moral guidance at all.
...
Leviticus 20:13
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
I'd much rather lack moral character than promote the 'moral superiority' of the bible.

Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, not a moral code.

We find our moral code in our empathy for our fellow humans, not from gods we can't show even exist to have a moral code they can't be shown to have.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #24

Post by Eloi »

[Replying to otseng in post #1]This topic is based on an opinion. Opinions are not facts.

I do not know any "doctrine" called "inerrancy of the Bible". There is a question people need to answer for themselves: Does the Bible have mistakes?

Make a list of all presumed "mistakes" of the content of the Bible, any information which you heard is wrong ... After that, begin researching one by one all points in your list and verify if it is a real "mistake" or it is not.

Delete the NOT-REAL-MISTAKE out of the list and after that bring the rest to the public and we will see what is left and we will know how many lies they put the atheists enemies of the Bible in your mind after trying to brain washing you.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #25

Post by Goat »

otseng wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 am


I agree atheism and secularism provide no moral guidance at all.

Neither does theism.

Atheism is the stance that god does not exist

Secularism is the stance that religious belief, or lack there of should be kept out of government

Theism is a stance the god/gods exist.


What does have moral stances is Secular Humanism,Progressive Atheism and objectiveism , and number of other atheistic philosopies and atheistic religions.

When it comes to the religious side, there is Christianity, Judaisml, Taoism, Hinduism, etc etc that present a moral framework.

But, the generic atheism or theism do not.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #26

Post by Diagoras »

Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:07 pmI do not know any "doctrine" called "inerrancy of the Bible".
In debate, this is commonly known as an 'argument from ignorance'.

If you'd put that exact phrase into Google, you'd get 'About 7,810,000 results (0.58 seconds)', which suggests that there's at least some counter-evidence available. It just needs a modicum of effort on your part.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #27

Post by Eloi »

🤣 Google does not dictate what I think. I am Jehovah's Witness; and I was raised in a Comunist country. They did not control my thoughts. I am a free man (John 17:17).
End of the dialog. I hate off topics.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #28

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to Eloi in post #27]

Maybe on your part - but it would be a shame if the dialogue were to stop for others just because you 'hate off topics'.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #29

Post by Mithrae »

otseng wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:40 am
Mithrae wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:41 am
But in the 21st century, there just doesn't seem to be any obvious area in which the bible is even a remotely plausible contender for "the best we've got" any more; factually, predictively, morally, socially, psychologically... :?
I'd disagree with this. It'd be interesting to debate this, but perhaps for another time.
It seems to me there's two rather different ways of understanding the OP question, either as
"The bible is authoritative and inspired, so how can we reconcile this without inerrancy?" or as
"Can the bible be [reasonably] considered authoritative and inspired without inerrancy?"

The former seems like the more natural reading of how it's phrased in the OP - "how can the bible be considered inspired without inerrancy" implies a focus on how, with inspiration stipulated as a foregone conclusion - but that would be more appropriate in Theology, Doctrine and Dogma than in this sub-forum. In the case of the latter question though, I'd say that like authoritative textbooks, laws and so on an appropriate requirement is not inerrancy but simply being the best available (or at least plausibly close to it). In that case, the question of whether there is any way in which the bible is a plausible contender for the best we've got in the 21st century would be utterly crucial to the question of whether it can be reasonably considered authoritative. Not just another chance for critics to endlessly attack the weakest parts of the canon of course, but a need for those who argue its authority to show some positive way - any rational way at all - that its 'authority' can be recognized or useful, regardless of any flaws.

If that can't be done then obviously we must conclude that the bible cannot reasonably be considered authoritative.

'Inspiration' is rather more vague of course; the wild ravings of some mad old geezer may well be driven by glimpsing more of an ultimate reality than his brain could handle (seems pretty likely if the Pentecostals are to be believed :D ), but that kind of 'inspiration' would be pretty useless regardless. If it fails the test of having something, anything, that can't be found better or more usefully elsewhere, claiming that it might nevertheless record experience of inspiration in some spots counts for little more than picking out a few bits we like.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #30

Post by Eloi »

If God is going to inspire a guide for his loyal ones and that guide contains errors, then that guide is not safe ... nor is that God the God the Bible teaches about, a God to trust.

In the other side: who is so interested in making you to believe that? Your enemy ... not your friend. Will he give you any alternative to fill the blank? No, he won't ... he is not really interested in your wellbeing. Probably that person who is killing your faith is just doing a job and getting paid for it.

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