How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1081

Post by otseng »

After Pharaoh let the people go, the Israelites left Egypt. The actual route the Israelites travelled from Egypt to Canaan has a multitude of theories. Even though the Bible is detailed in explaining the route, it is difficult to reconstruct. The names of all the places have either been lost in history, changed, or an entirely different location now uses the name. So, there is no consensus view on what was the actual route of the Exodus. But, based on the textual evidence and archaeological evidence, we can determine a plausible route.

When they left, the text says they avoided the "land of the Philistines" (erets of the pelisti).

Exod 13:17 (KJV)
17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not [through] the way of the land of the Philistines, although that [was] near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

Image

The "way of the Philistine" route being referred to is most likely the Via Maris (purple road in map above).
Via Maris is one modern name for an ancient trade route, dating from the early Bronze Age, linking Egypt with the northern empires of Syria, Anatolia and Mesopotamia — along the Mediterranean coast of modern-day Egypt, Palestine, Israel, Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria. In Latin, Via Maris means "way of the sea", a translation of the Greek ὁδὸν θαλάσσης found in Isaiah 9:1 of the Septuagint. It is a historic road that runs in part along the Israeli Mediterranean coast. It was the most important route from Egypt to Syria (the Fertile Crescent) which followed the coastal plain before crossing over into the plain of Jezreel and the Jordan valley.

One earlier name was "Way of the Philistines", a reference to a passageway through the Philistine Plain (which today consists of Israel's southern coastal plain and the Gaza Strip).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Maris
The Via Maris was, for sure, one of the most significant ancient Israel trade routes. Both In Hebrew (‘Derech haYam’) and Latin, this means ‘ Way of the Sea’ and references to it can be found both in Isaiah (in the Hebrew Bible) and Matthew (in the Christian Bible). It dates back to the early Bronze Age and was a route linking Egypt with the northern empires of Syria, Mesopotamia and Anatolia.

‘Via Maris’ is a Roman term and the reference to the sea is, of course, the Mediterranean Sea - the stretch of coast through which the route passed. It is also known by other names - the ‘Coastal Road’ and ‘the way of the Philistines’ and in modern-day Israel, it is referred to as the ‘International Coastal Highway.’
https://www.beinharimtours.com/ancient- ... of-israel/

The Egyptians called this route the "Way of Horus" or "Path of Horus".
Various parties controlled the Way of the Sea. At first it fell under the infl uence of the Egyptians (and was called the Way of Horus in ancient sources), then under the Philistines (called the Way of the Land of the Philistines in the Bible), and finally under the Romans (who called it Via Maris, Way of the Sea).
http://earlyworldhistory.blogspot.com/2 ... f-sea.html

The Via Maris/Way of the Philistines/Way of Horus was the shortest path from Egypt to Canaan. But, as the Bible acknowledges, it was a path full of military outposts.

The Way of Horus was heavily fortified by the Egyptians during the 18th and 19th Dynasties.
The path of Horus linked Egypt with Asia , led from Suez to the city of Rafah in Gaza . It was protected by eleven forts built during the Dynasty XVIII and Dynasty XIX , between 1560 BC. C. and 1081 a. C. , which served both for its defense and as guard posts on the eastern border of the country. These fortresses were supported by a complex system of granaries and wells, and were located within a day's distance from each other, allowing the army (or merchants) to cross the Sinai Peninsula.safely, and were considered so important that they were performed in the temple of Seti I at Karnak , (Thebes).
In spite of the divergent opinions of Egyptologists as regards the beginning of the military route or what is called " The Great Horus Route" illustrated in the battle relief of King Seti I in the columns court of the Karnak Temple, as having 12 fortresses and military compounds, yet they agree upon the route's real existence.

Egyptologists have discovered until now 4 fortresses, two at Qantrah Sharq (Eastern Qantarah) at Tell Habouh and Tell Al-Borg; the third in Bir Al-Abd; the fourth in the Kharoub area near Al-Arish.

But the largest is that of Tell Habouh which had been previously the old Pharaonic Fortress of Tharou, the first to be built on the great military route. This was confirmed by the Anstasy Papyrus which bears variegated drawings inscribed by Thutomose III. The fortress embraced a station of the Egyptian army, the barracks of the soldiers and the houses of the officers; the central stores of the State and a stable. In fact, it is an important discovery because it constitutes a model of Ancient Egypt's military architecture, and the Egyptian strategy, through different ages, for the protection of the entirety of Egypt.
http://www.touregypt.net/historicalessa ... litary.htm

After passing the Egyptian fortifications, they would next encounter major sea coast cities of Palestine that were under Egyptian control - Gaza, Ashkelon, and Ashdod.

Gaza
Inhabited since at least the 15th century BCE,[5] Gaza has been dominated by several different peoples and empires throughout its history.

Settlement in the region of Gaza dates back to the ancient Egyptian fortress built in Canaanite territory at Tell es-Sakan, to the south of present-day Gaza. The site went into decline throughout the Early Bronze Age II as its trade with Egypt sharply decreased.[14] Another urban center known as Tell el-Ajjul began to grow along the Wadi Ghazza riverbed. During the Middle Bronze Age, a revived Tell es-Sakan became the southernmost locality in Palestine, serving as a fort. In 1650 BCE, when the Canaanite Hyksos occupied Egypt, a second city developed on the ruins of the first Tell as-Sakan. However, it was abandoned by the 14th century BCE, at the end of the Bronze Age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City

Ashkelon
Ashkelon was a thriving Middle Bronze Age (2000–1550 BCE) city of more than 60 hectares (150 acres).

Beginning in the time of Thutmose III (1479-1425 BC) the city was under Egyptian control, under a local governor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkelon

Ashdod
The Egyptians conquered Canaan following the battle of Megiddo (1468 BC). Their control of Canaan lasted for 350 years, and Ashdod was a station along the only road connecting Egypt to Canaan.
https://www.biblewalks.com/ashdod

As for the term "land of the Philistines", I suspect the phrase "erets of the pelisti" could be an anachronistic redaction for the original "Way of Horus" since they both meant the same thing and the cities were not technically under Philistine rule at that time.

If they did not take the Via Maris route, the next major route would be the King's Highway (in red in map above), which was less fortified than the Way of Horus.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1082

Post by otseng »

Instead of going the way of the Philistines, they went through "the way of the wilderness of the Red sea".

Exod 13:18 (KJV)
18 But God led the people about, [through] the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.

The Hebrew for Red sea is "yam suph".
In the Exodus narrative, Hebrew: יַם-סוּף, romanized: Yam-Sūp̄, lit. 'Reed Sea') is the body of water which the Israelites crossed following their exodus from Egypt. The same phrase appears in over 20 other places in the Hebrew Bible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_Suph

"Suph" means reed, rush, water plant, flag, weed.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

"Yam" means sea.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

In the Bible, yam suph can refer to the Gulf of Suez or the Gulf of Akaba.
name applied only to arms of Red Sea:

a. to Gulf of Suez
Exodus 10:19; Joshua 2:10 (both J), Exodus 13:18; Exodus 15:4, 22; Exodus 23:31 (all E), Deuteronomy 11:4; Joshua 4:23 (D), Numbers 33:10, 11 (P), elsewhere late Nehemiah 9:9; Psalm 106:7; Psalm 106:9; Psalm 106:22; Psalm 136:13; Psalm 136:15.

b. sometimes to Gulf of Akaba
1 Kings 9:26, and דֶּרֶךְ יַםסֿוּף Numbers 21:4 (E), probably also Numbers 14:25 (E), Deuteronomy 1:40; Deuteronomy 2:1; perhaps Judges 11:16; Jeremiah 49:21; possibly read מִיַּםסֿוּף for מוֺל ס׳ Deuteronomy 1:1 (see below).
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

So, the Israelites must have travelled through the Gulf of Suez/Gulf of Akaba region.

Image
Panoramic image from space of the Sinai Peninsula, flanked by the Gulf of Suez (left) and the Gulf of Aqaba (right)
https://armstronginstitute.org/339-wher ... take-place

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1083

Post by otseng »

One of the major points of reference in the Exodus route is Mt Sinai, where the 10 commandments was given. Sinai was also referred to as Horeb.
In the Bible, Mount Sinai (Hebrew: הַר סִינַי‬, Har Sinai) is the mountain at which the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God.[1] In the Book of Deuteronomy, these events are described as having transpired at Mount Horeb. "Sinai" and "Horeb" are generally considered to refer to the same place by scholars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai_(Bible)

There are many locations offered to where Mt Sinai could be.

Image

There is a mountain called Mt Sinai at the southern part of the Sinai Peninsula, also called Jabal Musa. However, it was only in the 3rd century was it started to be called Mt Sinai at Jabal Musa.

"The biblical Mount Sinai is identified in Christian tradition with Jebel Musa in the south of the Sinai Peninsula, but this association dates only from the 3rd century CE, and no evidence of the Exodus has been found there."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_a ... the_Exodus

One notable fact is Codex Sinaiticus, one of the oldest most complete Bibles in the world, was discovered there.

"The ancient library at Jebel Musa was the source of Codex Sinaiticus, one of the major Greek texts used to aid Bible translation."
https://www.gotquestions.org/mount-Sinai.html

Mt Sinai (Horeb) was also where Moses saw the burning bush.
The story of Moses and the burning bush from the Book of Exodus is a well-known episode in the Old Testament. It is a decisive moment because God reveals his name to Moses: the first time he has spoken his name to anyone. Located on Mount Horeb (better known as Mount Sinai), the burning bush was on fire, but wasn’t consumed by the flames.
https://interestingliterature.com/2021/ ... -analysis/

"The Burning bush was, according to the Book of Exodus, a bush on Mount Sinai which appeared to be burning without being consumed by the flames."
https://historica.fandom.com/wiki/Burning_bush

Horeb was identified in Midian, which is east of the Gulf of Aqaba along the northwest Arabian peninsula.

Image
https://bibleatlas.org/midian.htm
William G. Dever states that biblical Midian was in the "northwest Arabian Peninsula, on the east shore of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red Sea"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midian

According to Ex 10:1, the Sinai wilderness was beyond the Egyptian border.

Exod 19:1 (KJV)
1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they [into] the wilderness of Sinai.

Image
https://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/fa ... egypt.html

Image
https://doubtingthomasresearch.com/maps ... pt-midian/

Based on these evidence, it is most likely Mt Sinai was not in the Sinai peninsula, but in the Arabian peninsula.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1084

Post by otseng »

Exod 14:2-3 (ESV)
2 "Tell the people of Israel to turn back and encamp in front of Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall encamp facing it, by the sea.
3 For Pharaoh will say of the people of Israel, 'They are wandering in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.'

The Israelites travelled on the King's Highway as I argued in post 1085. And they were to go to Mt Sinai after crossing the Red Sea, so the above passage must've occurred at the Gulf of Aqaba. Verse 14:2 says they turned back and then went to Pihahiroth that was next to the sea.

Pihahiroth
Those positing a Hebrew name have speculated "Pi-HaHiroth" might mean "mouth of the gorges", descriptive of its location as the end of a canal or river. In fact, part of the mystery may be resolved by understanding the initial syllable ′Pi,′ which corresponds to the Egyptian word Ipi or Ipu, as house of such as in ′Pithom′ or ′Pi-Ramesses′. The next literary fragment ′Ha′ would indicate the ′desert hills or mountains to the west′ normally associated with Libya, but a more ethereal rendering could possibly indicate the prominent mountainous range west of Nuweiba Beach on the West coast of the Gulf of Aqaba.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi-HaHiroth

Migdol
Physically, it can mean fortified land, i.e. a walled city or castle; or elevated land, as in a raised bed, like a platform, possibly a lookout.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migdol

Baal-zephon
The books of Exodus and Numbers in the Hebrew Scriptures records that the Israelites were instructed by YHWH to camp across from a place named "Baʿal Zaphon" in order to appear trapped and thereby entice the Pharaoh to pursue them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal-zephon

So, Nuweiba beach would fit as the location they went to - west side of Gulf of Aqaba, south of King's highway, surrounded by mountains, and large enough area to hold millions of people.

If they were all at Nuweiba beach, Pharaoh would immediately think they were lost and would be the perfect opportunity to pursue them since they were trapped.
Nuweiba lies on a large flood plain measuring about 40 km2 (15 sq mi), sandwiched between the Sinai mountains and the Gulf of Aqaba, and is located some 150 km (90 mi) north of Sharm el Sheikh, 465 km (290 mi) southeast from Cairo and 70 km (40 mi) south of the Israel–Egypt border separating Taba and Eilat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuweiba

Route travelled to Nuweiba:
Image
https://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Aerial view of Nuweiba:
Image
http://thealeph-tavproject.com/The%20Al ... Story.html

The etymology of the name Nuweiba also points towards this being the crossing site.

"Nuweiba is short for Nuwayba'al Muzayyinah in Arabic which means waters of Moses open."
https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1907139

Google map of Nuweiba:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewe ... c-O-mYO9S4

Photos at Nuweiba:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Tourism-g29 ... ia/297551/

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1085

Post by otseng »

Exod 14:6-9 (KJV)
6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him:
7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with a high hand.
9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses [and] chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pi-hahiroth, before Baal-zephon.

As far as I can tell, when the Israelites saw the Egyptian army, this was the first time (of a long subsequent series) that they complained since leaving Egypt.

Exod 14:10-12 (KJV)
10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD.
11 And they said unto Moses, Because [there were] no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?

They were being a bit sarcastic in verse 14:11 about no graves in Egypt. The Egyptians were world famous for their tombs and graves.

Exod 14:11 (ABP)
11 And they said to Moses, Because there were no [existing tombs] in Egypt you led us to be put to death in the wilderness? What is this you did to us bringing us forth from out of Egypt?

Exod 14:11 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
And they said to Moshe, “Because there are no tombs in Egypt have you led us that we should die in the wilderness? Why have you done so to us and have brought us out from Egypt?
https://biblehub.com/hpbt/exodus/14.htm

Logically speaking, they had the right to complain. They would be no match against chariots and they had nowhere to escape to. But, God told Moses to divide the sea so they could go through it.

Exod 14:21-22 (KJV)
21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go [back] by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry [land], and the waters were divided.
22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry [ground]: and the waters [were] a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Conveniently, the sea bed going across the Gulf of Aqaba at Nuweiba is at one of the highest points along the entire gulf and less steep than other points.

Image
https://jabalmaqla.com/israelites-red-s ... -location/

The crossing at Nuweiba would pretty much have to a miraculous event. And I think for this reason it is not considered an option for many scholars. But, according to the text, it would be the most plausible location for the Red Sea crossing to me.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1086

Post by otseng »

Some renditions of the crossing of the Red sea:

Unknown date
Moses splitting the sea
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... sea_2.jpeg

1356
Crossing the Red Sea
Bartolo di Fredi
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ed_Sea.JPG

1481
Attraversamento del Mar Rosso
Cosimo Rosselli
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cross ... _Rosso.jpg

1530
Sinking Of The Pharaoh In The Red Sea
Lucas Cranach the Elder
Image
https://www.wikiart.org/en/lucas-cranac ... d-sea-1530

1542
Crossing of the Red Sea
Bronzino
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_ ... roject.jpg

1555
The Crossing of the Red Sea
Agnolo Bronzino
https://uploads1.wikiart.org/images/agn ... !Large.jpg
https://www.wikiart.org/en/agnolo-bronz ... d-sea-1555

1589
The crossing of the red sea
Andrea Andreani
Image
https://collectionapi.metmuseum.org/api ... main-image
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/707491

1600
The Crossing of the Red Sea
Sebastiaen Vrancx
Image
https://content.ngv.vic.gov.au/retrieve ... nonID=5003

1634
The Crossing of the Red Sea
Poussin
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_ ... ed_Sea.jpg

Mid 1600s
Crossing of the Red Sea
Jordaens
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ed_Sea.jpg

Mid 1600s
The Crossing of the Red Sea
Frans Francken
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Design.jpg

1815
The Israelites Resting after the Crossing of the Red Sea
Eckersberg
Image
https://useum.org/artwork/The-Israelite ... sberg-1815

1891
Passage of the Jews through the Red Sea
Aivazovsky
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aiva ... ed_Sea.jpg

1900
Pharaoh's Army Engulfed by the Red Sea
Bridgman
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Brid ... ed_Sea.jpg

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1087

Post by otseng »

Determining where is Mt Sinai in Saudi Arabia is elusive. The country only recently has been serious about archaeology.
I first visited Saudi Arabia in the mid 1960s when King Faisal bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud had just taken up his leadership of the Kingdom. King Faisal was a man of great vision and deep humanity. He sought knowledge and education for his people and declared that no country that disregarded its history could expect to be taken seriously.

At the time of his accession very little was known about the country’s pre-Islamic past. This was partly because anything before the dawn of Islam in the 7th century AD was regarded as ‘The Age of Ignorance’ and thus best ignored.
https://www.world-archaeology.com/featu ... chaeology/
The present Department of Antiquities stands on the foundations laid by the Supreme Council for Antiquities
and Museums. I feel honoured and privileged to be the present Head of the Deputy Ministry of Antiquities and
Museums in the Kingdom. The legacy has changed now, and we are proud of what we have achieved in the
last thirty years in all fields of archaeology. In 1975 the Department consisted of only a few employees, with Dr.
Masry as the sole Saudi archaeologist. Now, in 2004, we have a large team of graduate Saudi archaeologists,
some of them with Masters and Doctoral degrees from Saudi, European, and American universities.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/41219378
It is important to remember that the Saudi government only very recently loosened restrictions on archaeological excavation. The country only held its first archaeology conference in October 2017, where the speakers emphasized that little digging has ever been done and that massive amounts of artifacts are expected to lie beneath the surface.
https://doubtingthomasresearch.com/jeth ... in-midian/

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1088

Post by otseng »

After their encampment at Mt Sinai for a year, I believe the Israelites spent the vast majority of their 40 year sojourn at Kadesh.

Deut 1:46 says they stayed at Kadesh for a long time.

Deut 1:46 (BSB)
46 For this reason you stayed in Kadesh for a long time - a very long time.

Deut 2:14 implies they were at Kadesh for 38 years.

Deut 2:14 (KJV)
14 And the space in which we came from Kadesh-barnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, [was] thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD swore unto them.

Num 33 is the exhaustive list of the places they stayed at during the Exodus journey. After leaving Kadesh, the next event is Aaron dying at Mount Hor in the 40th year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Exodus

Num 33:36-38 (ESV)
36 And they set out from Ezion-geber and camped in the wilderness of Zin (that is, Kadesh).
37 And they set out from Kadesh and camped at Mount Hor, on the edge of the land of Edom.
38 And Aaron the priest went up Mount Hor at the command of the LORD and died there, in the fortieth year after the people of Israel had come out of the land of Egypt, on the first day of the fifth month.

So, the Exodus is not how it's typically imagined that they were continuously wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, but they were only wandering for 2 years and encamped at Kadesh for 38 years.
Because the Israelites spent thirty-eight years encamped at Kadesh-barnea, a number of important events took place there.
https://www.compellingtruth.org/Kadesh-barnea.html
It is highly likely that, for most of the next thirty-eight years, the Israelites lived at the large oasis of Kadesh Barnea, from where they spread out to neighbouring oases to pasture some of their flocks.
https://www.thebiblejourney.org/biblejo ... sh-barnea/

Though many hold Kadesh was at Tell el-Qudeirat, I lean towards the position that it was at Petra, which was what Josephus wrote.
Josephus identifies Miriam's burial site (which the Bible identifies as Kadesh) with Petra, which he called Rekem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadesh_(biblical)
And when he came to a place which the Arabians esteem their metropolis, which was formerly called Arce, but has now the name of Petra: at this place, which was encompassed with high mountains, Aaron went up one of them, in the sight of the whole army: Moses having before told him that he was to die: for this place was over against them.
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-4.html
It is our conclusion that Kadesh Barnea is located Transjordan at Petra between El Beidha and Basta.
https://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-a ... barnea.htm

Petra also fits with Moses striking the rock and giving the people water.

Num 20:1-2 (KJV)
1 Then came the children of Israel, [even] the whole congregation, into the desert of Zin in the first month: and the people abode in Kadesh; and Miriam died there, and was buried there.
2 And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.
The topography of Petra is that of a gigantic semicircle of rock that channels both spring-water and winter floodwater downwards and along a series of natural fissures. Left alone, these streams and surges of precious water simply vanish into the sand. But if the rock is reconfigured by hydraulic engineers, the water may be directed into cisterns, accumulating the trickles from the springs and holding the winter floods captive so as to provide a supply through the long, hot, dry summer months.
https://www.world-archaeology.com/featu ... -of-petra/

Moses asked the king of Edom passage through their country along the King's highway.

Num 20:16-17 (KJV)
16 And when we cried unto the LORD, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we [are] in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border:
17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink [of] the water of the wells: we will go by the king's [high] way, we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders.

The King's highway runs from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Dead Sea.

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... routes.png

Here is a map of the region of Edom around 830 BC when it was at its height:

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 30_map.svg

So, the Biblical account matches the King's highway and at the edge of the Edomite territory with Petra.

Petra is surrounded by other nearby towns, one of them is called Wadi Musa.
Wadi Musa means "Valley of Moses" in Arabic. It is said that Moses passed through the valley and struck water from the rock for his followers at the site of Ain Musa ("Moses Spring" or "Moses' Well") The Nabateans built channels that carried water from this spring to the city of Petra. Wadi Musa was also nicknamed the "Guardian of Petra". The Tomb of Aaron, the traditional burial site of biblical Aaron, the brother of Moses, is on nearby Jebel Harun, a strong candidate for biblical Mount Hor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_Musa

Though Petra is a popular tourist destination, it has largely been unexcavated.
Despite all the publicity and the parade of tourists, much of Petra remains untouched by archaeologists, hidden under thick layers of debris and sand built up over the centuries. No one has found the sites of the busy marketplaces that must have dotted Petra.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 155444564/

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otseng
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Child sacrifices

Post #1089

Post by otseng »

One of the practices of the Canaanites was child sacrifices. And part of the reason, if not the primary reason, for the conquest of the Canaanites by God was judgment against their evil practices.

Deut 12:29-31 (ESV)
29 "When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land,
30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods?- that I also may do the same.'
31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
Most scholars today, including Day, agree on at least several points: there was a cult of child sacrifice in ancient Israel, and that this practice is of Canaanite origin; that this type of sacrifice, contra some older scholarship, does indeed refer to the practice of actually sacrificing children, and not simply of dedicating them to a deity
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithprom ... nt-israel/

Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Molech.jpg

Child sacrifice was associated with Molech.

Lev 20:2 (KJV)
2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
Moloch (/ˈmoʊlɒk/; Biblical Hebrew: מֹלֶךְ Mōleḵ or הַמֹּלֶךְ‎ hamMōleḵ;[a] Ancient Greek: Μόλοχ, Latin: Moloch; also Molech or Molek) is a name or a term which appears in the Hebrew Bible several times, primarily in the book of Leviticus. The Bible strongly condemns practices which are associated with Moloch, practices which appear to have included child sacrifice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch
Condemned by biblical prophets and Roman senators alike, few pagan deities were as reviled as Moloch, a god whose bronze body was a furnace used for sacrificing children.

The cult of Moloch — who is also called Molech — is said to have boiled children alive in the bowels of a big, bronze statue with the body of a man and the head of a bull.

Practiced by the people of the Levant region from at least the early Bronze Age, the cult of Moloch was still active into the first few centuries of the Common Era.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/moloch
The practice of child sacrifice among Canaanite groups is attested by numerous sources spanning over a millennium. One example is in the writings of Diodorus Siculus:

"They also alleged that Kronos had turned against them inasmuch as in former times they had been accustomed to sacrifice to this god the noblest of their sons, but more recently, secretly buying and nurturing children, they had sent these to the sacrifice; and when an investigation was made, some of those who had been sacrificed were discovered to have been substituted by stealth... In their zeal to make amends for the omission, they selected two hundred of the noblest children and sacrificed them publicly; and others who were under suspicion sacrificed themselves voluntarily, in number not less than three hundred. There was in the city a bronze image of Kronos, extending its hands, palms up and sloping towards the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire. It is probable that it was from this that Euripides has drawn the mythical story found in his works about the sacrifice in Tauris, in which he presents Iphigeneia being asked by Orestes: "But what tomb shall receive me when I die? A sacred fire within, and earth's broad rift." Also the story passed down among the Greeks from ancient myth that Cronus did away with his own children appears to have been kept in mind among the Carthaginians through this observance." Library 20.1.4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice
Most scholars agree that the ritual performed at the tophet was child sacrifice, and they connect it to similar episodes throughout the Bible and recorded in Phoenicia (whose inhabitants were referred to as Canaanites in the Bible) and Carthage by Hellenistic sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tophet

As the Phoenicians in Canaan were displaced by the Israelites, they moved to other parts of the Mediterranean. And they brought along their religious practices, which included child sacrifices.
In Phoenician sites throughout the Western Mediterranean (except for Spain and Ibiza), archaeology has revealed fields full of buried urns containing the burnt remains of human infants and lambs, covered by carved stone monuments.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tophet
What we are saying now is that the archaeological, literary, and documentary evidence for child sacrifice is overwhelming and that instead of dismissing it out of hand, we should try to understand it.'

The city-state of ancient Carthage was a Phoenician colony located in what is now Tunisia. It operated from around 800BC until 146BC, when it was destroyed by the Romans.

Children – both male and female, and mostly a few weeks old – were sacrificed by the Carthaginians at locations known as tophets. The practice was also carried out by their neighbours at other Phoenician colonies in Sicily, Sardinia and Malta. Dedications from the children's parents to the gods are inscribed on slabs of stone above their cremated remains, ending with the explanation that the god or gods concerned had 'heard my voice and blessed me'.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-an ... r-children

Tertullian also records the Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice.
Infants have been sacrificed to Saturn publicly in Africa,1 even to the proconsulship of Tiberius, who devoted the very trees about Saturn's temple to be gibbets for his priests, as accomplices in the murder, for contributing the protection of their shadow to such wicked practices. For the truth of this I appeal to the militia of my own country, who served the proconsul in the execution of this order. But these abominations are continued to this day in private.
https://www.tertullian.org/articles/reeve_apology.htm

Greek author Kleitarchos also records it.
Out of reverence for Kronos (Ba'al Hammon), the Phoenicians, and especially the
Carthaginians, whenever they seek to obtain some great favor, vow one of their
children, burning it as a sacrifice to the deity, if they are especially eager to gain success.
There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos, its hands extended over a
bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall on the
body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing, until
the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/c ... fice-today

Evidence at Carthage suggests the child sacrifices were also related to Molech.
The remains of thousands of incinerated children were buried at Carthage under the aforementioned funerary stelae with Semitic inscriptions that refer to living sacrifices, mlk.
https://www.academia.edu/28849418/Canaa ... _the_Bible

Later, the Israelites also practiced child sacrifices. And as God judged the Canaanites for performing child sacrifices, God judged Israel and sent the Assyrians and Babylonians to conquer the Israelites.

2Chr 28:3 (KJV)
Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

Jer 32:35 (KJV)
35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
The fact, therefore, now generally accepted by critical scholars, is that in the last days of the kingdom human sacrifices were offered to Yhwh as King or Counselor of the nation and that the Prophets disapproved of it and denounced it because it was introduced from outside as an imitation of a heathen cult and because of its barbarity.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/arti ... och-molech
It is interesting to note that of all the societies I have studied, primitive cultures have little evidence of abortion or infanticide; they are primarily the practices of the higher cultures of antiquity.
https://biblearchaeology.org/research/c ... fice-today

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1090

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Otseng, I (and it seems others) have decided to let this stay off the topic, and become Otseng's Bible -study thread. But I have to repeat that this is No evidence for the Exodus the Conquest or anything else in the Bible.

Sure there was the Canaanite delta (possibly called Goshen, possibly not) and an occupation of Canaan, and a polemical battle with heathens and their High places, but simply posting Bible passages as though it proved something is preachery (for all you claim that it isn't) and Bible -classes. Which is not what this forum should be for.

I just feel obliged to say so as you no doubt think you won this debate. In fact you spammed anyone out of wanting to expend time on you.

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