A whale of a tale

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nobspeople
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A whale of a tale

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

A lot of talk has been happening here in regards to if the resurrection is factual or not. Among the discussion, is talk of 'witnesses' and the writing (or verbal) passing down of information regarding said resurrection; how what witnesses wrote what they saw (or said that they saw) is proof enough that the resurrection is factual.

A lot more recent (a few centuries ago) is tales of sea creatures and whales. Much was said about these creatures. There was also art depicting what these sea fairing people 'saw'.
Below is one such example
Image

Now, while it's possible there is a creature that looks exactly like this in the depths of the ocean, the [/]likelihood[/i] isn't great. This artwork is what some of themsaid they saw.

For discussion:
If these eyewitnesses of a few centuries ago, can't describe what they saw without bias and the inability to adlib, how can we use the eyewitnesses of the times of jesus (or what those witnesses told others that told others) to represent an accurate description of the resurrection? Or if it even happened at all?

So is the resurrection simply a 'whale of a tale'?
Last edited by nobspeople on Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #2

Post by Diagoras »

An interesting debate topic, thanks!

If we're debating this fairly, we might have to be careful when saying:
There was also art depicting what these sea fairing people 'saw'.
I found this article to make some good points, particularly that "uneducated sailors were the main sources for artists and writers trying to describe life in the ocean", so we should remember that the artists were likely only hearing descriptions second-hand at best.

There was a long-held theory, going back to at least the first century with Pliny the Elder’s Natural History, that every land animal has an equivalent in the ocean.
There appears to have been a genuine attempt to describe marine life in as scientific a manner as possible - given the limitations of the time.

Both the second-hand 'some time after the event' nature, and the desire to be accurate, appear to me to match the way the Gospels were produced. The difference we face though, is that understanding of science grew, and sailors could verify (or falsify) the cartographical information they'd previously relied upon.

If we'd never invented the marine chronometer or iron-hulled ships, we might have seen such fantastical creatures on ocean maps much more recently.

The fact that we can't do the same with the Gospel accounts suggests that reliance upon them to give a factual view is similarly dangerous.

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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #3

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

At least the imagined sea-monster depicted in the artwork resembles a type of marine mammal (i.e. whale) which can be demonstrated to exist in reality. If whales had never been demonstrated to exist in reality, there would be no justification to infer that the creature depicted in the artwork was anything more than imaginary.

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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #4

Post by nobspeople »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:40 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

At least the imagined sea-monster depicted in the artwork resembles a type of marine mammal (i.e. whale) which can be demonstrated to exist in reality. If whales had never been demonstrated to exist in reality, there would be no justification to infer that the creature depicted in the artwork was anything more than imaginary.
Sure, it 'kinda'' looks like a whale. It also 'kinda'' looks like a fish. A manatee or sea cow, even.
But the details are lacking, in some cases, and missing in others. Couldn't the same be said of the resurrection?
A guy could have been killed and taken away. The details of what was said or wasn't said could be open for interpretation. His body may have been stolen (or not). There may have been guys at the tomb, or there could have been angels. Or not. Someone may have seen someone that looked like him. Or not.
If someone was told 'go back in time and prove the resurrection based on the biblical story' it would be just as hard if someone was told 'go back in time and find this animal'.
Sure, they may (or may not) find a whale. Or fish. Or manatee or sea cow. But it won't likely look like the photo.
They may find a couple dead guys on a cross (or not). Or they could find a dead guy in a hole or cave (or not). They may even find people standing next to it. But the won't likely see a god-man that allowed himself to die now walking and talking.
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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

You dont believe whales exist?

Image
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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #6

Post by nobspeople »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:38 am You dont believe whales exist?

Image
Is this pre- or post-Jonah snack !? :shock:
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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #7

Post by benchwarmer »

Diagoras wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 8:14 pm ... so we should remember that the artists were likely only hearing descriptions second-hand at best.
So just like the gospel writers then. The picture in the OP is a perfect analogy as far as I can tell. Authors who were not witnesses (*) tell some amazing tales.

* No gospel author claims to be a witness to the events and the obvious copying and pasting from some gospels to others makes the information 3rd hand at best in most cases.

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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #8

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Diagoras in post #2]
so we should remember that the artists were likely only hearing descriptions second-hand at best.
Which was the point of the thread's creation
The difference we face though, is that understanding of science grew, and sailors could verify (or falsify) the cartographical information they'd previously relied upon.
Perhaps. But that seems to be a qualifier of that particular case. In other words, unlike marine animals today, there aren't men poppin' up from the dead we could compare to the biblical story.
The fact that we can't do the same with the Gospel accounts suggests that reliance upon them to give a factual view is similarly dangerous.
Pretty much. But for some, danger is fun. Others seem to ignore it. People are weird in that way.
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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #9

Post by bluegreenearth »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:38 am You dont believe whales exist?
You don't believe whales are identical to supernatural man-eating fish?

Image

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Re: A whale of a tale

Post #10

Post by bluegreenearth »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:23 am Sure, it 'kinda'' looks like a whale. It also 'kinda'' looks like a fish. A manatee or sea cow, even.
But the details are lacking, in some cases, and missing in others. Couldn't the same be said of the resurrection?
A guy could have been killed and taken away. The details of what was said or wasn't said could be open for interpretation. His body may have been stolen (or not). There may have been guys at the tomb, or there could have been angels. Or not. Someone may have seen someone that looked like him. Or not.
If someone was told 'go back in time and prove the resurrection based on the biblical story' it would be just as hard if someone was told 'go back in time and find this animal'.
Sure, they may (or may not) find a whale. Or fish. Or manatee or sea cow. But it won't likely look like the photo.
They may find a couple dead guys on a cross (or not). Or they could find a dead guy in a hole or cave (or not). They may even find people standing next to it. But the won't likely see a god-man that allowed himself to die now walking and talking.
Agreed. The removal of a dead body, men loitering outside a tomb, a case of mistaken identity, etc. are all imagined events which can be demonstrated to occur in reality.

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