Can god do anything?

[nobspeople]

It's been said god can do anything. It's also been said god can do anything but what god can't do (examples given to me included: forcing people to do anything, break existing rules of nature to name a couple).

Simple question:
Can god do anything?
Why or why not?
Another way to ask the same question, is:
Does god limit its abilities?

[William]

It's been said god can do anything. It's also been said god can do anything but what god can't do (examples given to me included: forcing people to do anything, break existing rules of nature to name a couple).

Simple question:
Can god do anything?
Why or why not?
Another way to ask the same question, is:
Does god limit its abilities?

IF;

God=Mind Behind Creation

THEN;

it is possible that God can do anything, given GOd did that.

Thus, it has to be said that God limits its abilities re said creation.

Clearly the universe is set in motion to become something [ultimately] while at the same time making things within it become something [Earth springs to mind] and this is because a limitless creator wanted to see how something(s) might unfold were he to give it the briefest of instructions and then allowed it to unfold as it wanted to...within the limitations of those instructions.

IF;

God=Mind Behind Creation but God is limited as to what it can do

THEN;

it is possible that God can work towards being able to do anything re its creation

Thus, it has to be said that God limits its abilities re said creation by being within its creation and evolving along with it.

at least as far as I can surmise re the subject...

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #51]

IF; God=Mind Behind Creation THEN; it is possible that God can do anything, given GOd did that*.

Agreed. If god created everything then it can do anything. But god didn't already so that* [anything] - it did something. Unless we can prove god did everything everywhere, which we can't. We can only (rightfully or wrongly) surmise that's the truth.

Thus, it has to be said that God limits its abilities re said creation.

Disagree. It doesn't have to be said at all, unless one wants to justify why god hasn't done 'this' or 'that' for whatever reasons.

Clearly the universe is set in motion to become something [ultimately] while at the same time making things within it become something [Earth springs to mind]...

Perhaps. I wouldn't use the term 'clearly' as you did here as it indicates having knowledge that we don't have. For sake of argument, then, sure.

...and this is because

Op... here's were we start to have issues. You're assuming (rightly so, perhaps, but an assumption nonetheless) of a cause when one's not known.

...a limitless creator wanted to see how something(s) might unfold were he to give it the briefest of instructions and then allowed it to unfold as it wanted to...within the limitations of those instructions.

Limitless? Does that equate to all powerful and all knowing? If not, then there's an issue that needs addressed (maybe in another thread). If so, then we continue here:
Sure, what you say here, mostly, is a possibility. But the question 'can god do anything' is already answered above in bold, so continuing on seems self serving as it doesn't feed into the question that's already answered.

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #52]

Thus, it has to be said that God limits its abilities re said creation.

Disagree. It doesn't have to be said at all, unless one wants to justify why god hasn't done 'this' or 'that' for whatever reasons.

Since the creation we are talking about is still in the motion of 'becoming' we cannot say for sure that GOd isn't eventually going to do 'this or that' which 'hasn't yet be done' because the universe is still unfolding in that direction.

So any given thing identified as "God hasn't done" doesn't mean to say "God will not do it" in the same way we see the universe is unfolding into something rather than staying forever as we see it persently.

Clearly the universe is set in motion to become something [ultimately] while at the same time making things within it become something [Earth springs to mind]...

Perhaps. I wouldn't use the term 'clearly' as you did here as it indicates having knowledge that we don't have. For sake of argument, then, sure.

I gave you what we clearly have as evidence so far. "[Earth springs to mind]."

The knowledge is there to access.

IF

The Earth was created

THEN

It wasn't created complete as it is still in the process of unfolding.

IF
We assume that The Creator could make it complete immediately, but hasn't done so,


THEN
We can contemplate possible reasons for why this is the most likely the case.

Limitless? Does that equate to all powerful and all knowing?

In some cases, yes.

A government which is overseeing a sovereign state is all powerful and all knowing in regard to that state.

Yet it is limited by other sovereign states which are also all powerful and all knowing in regard to their states.

ALl states limit their power to destory the other states because all states would lose their status of being all powerful and all knowing and the story would end.

IF
The Creator made the universe in order for stories to be able to happen.

THEN
THe Creator would limit its abilities in order for that to be able to happen largely uninterrupted

BECAUSE

The stories created are more important to The Creator than its one lonely existence story of being all powerful and all knowing but unknown to any other Sovereign state because no other sovereign state exists as its own story, because The Creator didn't limit its own power and destroyed all the competition...

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #53]

Since the creation we are talking about is still in the motion of 'becoming'

I disagree. This would mean, to me, we know what it's 'becoming'. We don't. Maybe it's at its zenith already?

The knowledge is there to access. IF The Earth was created THEN It wasn't created complete as it is still in the process of unfolding. IF We assume that The Creator could make it complete immediately, but hasn't done so, THEN We can contemplate possible reasons for why this is the most likely the case.

A lot of 'IFs' there to make assumptions on. If (pun intended) all those things are true (which some may debate) then perhaps. But perhaps not, if even one of those 'IFs' aren't true.

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #54]

Since the creation we are talking about is still in the motion of 'becoming'

I disagree. This would mean, to me, we know what it's 'becoming'. We don't.

Why do you think that?

Maybe it's at its zenith already?

I am happy to examine the science re this.

The knowledge is there to access. IF The Earth was created THEN It wasn't created complete as it is still in the process of unfolding. IF We assume that The Creator could make it complete immediately, but hasn't done so, THEN We can contemplate possible reasons for why this is the most likely the case.

A lot of 'IFs' there to make assumptions on. If (pun intended) all those things are true (which some may debate) then perhaps. But perhaps not, if even one of those 'IFs' aren't true.

I am happy to debate re this.

You think that the universe has finished unfolding and is a complete thing in and of itself?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #55]

Why do you think that?

Because we don't know what it's becoming, or even if it is. It could becoming XYZ or it could just 'be'. I think seeing that it's 'becoming' is a very positive POV, but isn't 100% guaranteed that it is becoming anything.

I am happy to examine the science re this.

I'm not sure there's any 'science' to it. Maybe. Or maybe it's more a philosophical question If you find any science on it, let us know (that sounded sarcastic but it's not meant that way - it's meant honestly)

You think that the universe has finished unfolding and is a complete thing in and of itself?

I don't. Just saying it's possible either way, as we don't know. There may be things that leads us to think 'this way' or 'that way', but without more knowledge, it's hard (impossible?) to say

Interesting conversation, but how does it relate to the thread topic? Again, not being sarcastic, simply curious as to where it's leading.

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #56]

Because we don't know what it's becoming, or even if it is. It could becoming XYZ or it could just 'be'. I think seeing that it's 'becoming' is a very positive POV, but isn't 100% guaranteed that it is becoming anything.

It is always in a state of becoming - that is my overall point.

WE do not have to know what it is becoming other than;

1: Acknowledging what it is now
2: acknowledging what it has to show of what it was once
3: Accepting that whatever it eventually might become, it is presently in the state of being incomplete.

Maybe it's at its zenith already?

I am happy to examine the science re this.

I'm not sure there's any 'science' to it. Maybe. Or maybe it's more a philosophical question If you find any science on it, let us know (that sounded sarcastic but it's not meant that way - it's meant honestly)

I understand the importance of 'if's' and 'maybes' in a philosophical framework.

I understand also that science can be used to examine such thing if/maybe scientists wanted to do so and had the supported opportunity to do so.

Meantime what science doth show, is that zenith's come and go as a constant exhibition of the universe properties.

I think therefore that it is acceptable to say that;

IF

The universe was created.

THEN
it was created to do as it does...

Interesting conversation, but how does it relate to the thread topic? Again, not being sarcastic, simply curious as to where it's leading.

so...in that sense, it can be argued that god can do anything, including making it possibly for god to be prevented from being able to do everything which anything implies.

This universe may be a good indication of that being the case.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #57]

WE do not have to know what it is becoming other than;
1: Acknowledging what it is now
2: acknowledging what it has to show of what it was once
3: Accepting that whatever it eventually might become, it is presently in the state of being incomplete.

That's an interesting POV, but one I don't share with you. You're making a lot of assumptions that, it seems, you expect everyone else to make when that's not your place to do (said respectively, of course).
It's almost as if you're saying: I believe this so everyone else should.
I don't see that to be necessary.
Now it's possible I'm misjudging the 'harshness' (for lack of a better term) of your POV and if that's the case, I offer my apologies (with written communication is hard to gleam emotion and the like).

I understand the importance of 'if's' and 'maybes' in a philosophical framework. I understand also that science can be used to examine such thing if/maybe scientists wanted to do so and had the supported opportunity to do so. Meantime what science doth show, is that zenith's come and go as a constant exhibition of the universe properties.
I think therefore that it is acceptable to say that; IF The universe was created. THEN it was created to do as it does...

That's a great opinion, specifically the bolded part. And while that may be the case, it may not.

in that sense, it can be argued that god can do anything, including making it possibly for god to be prevented from being able to do everything which anything implies.

I don't have to look that deeply in to it. If it's said 'god can do anything' that's either true or false.
I watched a documentary last night about Kepler and all the planets discovered before it went off line. It was fascinating to see how much possibilities are out there (with an almost limitless possibility of more even if they're not discovered). If god created all that is, surely it's capable of more than we can imagine (even though nothing I saw pointed me to any god in any way, and this is coming from someone who was a christian for decades).

This universe may be a good indication of that being the case.

Sure could be. But doesn't have to be.

Edited to take 'the edge off' my words as they seemed unnecessarily, well, harsh, at times.

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #58]

1: Acknowledging what it is now
2: acknowledging what it has to show of what it was once
3: Accepting that whatever it eventually might become, it is presently in the state of being incomplete.

The above is simply what science enables -

That's a great opinion, specifically the bolded part. And while that may be the case, it may not.

I am happy to assume the side of 'it may be the case'. If/maybe you would like to debate it further and assume the "it may not be the case" side?

IF

The universe was created.

THEN
it was created to do as it does...in that sense, it can be argued that god can do anything, including making it possibly for god to be prevented from being able to do everything which anything implies.

I don't have to look that deeply in to it. If it's said 'god can do anything' that's either true or false.

It can be both, depending on the circumstance god places god-self within. That is my point.

I watched a documentary last night about Kepler and all the planets discovered before it went off line. It was fascinating to see how much possibilities are out there (with an almost limitless possibility of more even if they're not discovered). If god created all that is, surely it's capable of more than we can imagine (even though nothing I saw pointed me to any god in any way, and this is coming from someone who was a christian for decades).

There is a possibility for a limitless number of stories, even that the setting itself appears to be limited in relation to the stories which have, can and will become.

My argument is that this universe is made in such a way that the otherwise limitless god could be limited if that god chose to play in this particular environment.

Which is related to what I said earlier...

It could make us all believers in its existence the blink of an eye, but where is the fun in that?

Obviously [assuming we are in a Creation and thus there is a Creator] we are placed in an environment which hides us from directly knowing if that is actually the case, so perhaps this was in answer to someone asking if it could be possible be done...like in "can God do the impossible and completely hide from our immediate awareness?", if at some point we existed in an environment where the very thought of that being possible was considered bonkers.

and

IF
The Creator made the universe in order for stories to be able to happen.

THEN
THe Creator would limit its abilities in order for that to be able to happen largely uninterrupted

BECAUSE

The stories created are more important to The Creator than its one lonely existence story of being all powerful and all knowing but unknown to any other Sovereign state because no other sovereign state exists as its own story, because The Creator didn't limit its own power and destroyed all the competition...

[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #59]

1: Acknowledging what it is now
2: acknowledging what it has to show of what it was once
3: Accepting that whatever it eventually might become, it is presently in the state of being incomplete.
The above is simply what science enables -

Science is not necessary to accept 'what may be'. Reality isn't even enough for some to accept what 'it is now'. That's all up to the individual to determine. They can ignore science, data, information or not, regardless of the subject matter. It may be nice to have to have some 'accept' this or that, but ultimately, it's up to the individual. As I said, not everyone shares this POV, right or wrong.

If/maybe you would like to debate it further and assume the "it may not be the case" side?

There's really nothing to debate with me here. I'm simply saying it 'may or may not be the case'.

It can be both, depending on the circumstance god places god-self within. That is my point.

It can be both what, just to be clear?

My argument is that this universe is made in such a way that the otherwise limitless god could be limited if that god chose to play in this particular environment.

Sure. If god can do anything, that means just that - anything. Though, limiting one's self to only do 'some' or 'certain' things is, to me, an excuse applied by people who want to entertain the idea that 'god can do anything BUT'.
That said, anything means anything, so...
Circular...understanding...?

IF
The Creator made the universe in order for stories to be able to happen. THEN THe Creator would limit its abilities in order for that to be able to happen largely uninterrupted BECAUSE The stories created are more important to The Creator than its one lonely existence story of being all powerful and all knowing but unknown to any other Sovereign state because no other sovereign state exists as its own story, because The Creator didn't limit its own power and destroyed all the competition...

If the creator made the universe in order for stories to be able to happen is a big if.
That said, I see nothing to show this to be true past some people wanting it to be true.

Basically, the creator is and isn't all capable, can and can't do all things.... seems rather pointless to discuss it if you're trying to determine what it can and or can't do.
Seems it's simply a 'well, we're all stuck here dealing with this creator that can and can't do whatever it wants and doesn't want when it does and doesn't want how it does and doesn't want to'.
Might as well take some headache medicine and focus our attention on something else, as it's an never ended loop. If it's true at all. Which is debatable at the very least.
A loosing battle?

Thanks for the dialogue. And for answering the question! Have a good weekend!