The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

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Eloi
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The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Bible as the Word of God that he inspired to be written to instruct his people. That is the direct cause that our people are so different from other religious communities around the world. For example: all Witnesses preach, no Witnesses participate in military matters, we are totally neutral in political matters, etc. I am not talking about a few individuals or small groups of fellow believers with the same principles or beliefs, I am talking about a worldwide community where the more than 8.5 million counted as Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated, baptized and active public preachers. Furthermore, we all study the same teachings week after week all over the planet. They are direct effects of seriously considering all biblical matters.

Aside from the direct results of being fully guided by the Scriptures, what other evidence do we Witnesses have to consider the Bible as the Word of God? I would like to talk about them little by little on this topic, and although some do not agree, at least you will know what reasons we have for having this point of view on the Bible. First thing, to start on one specific point: prophecies.

To understand the matter of the prophecies that Jehovah's prophets gave in their books, we must first understand one thing: since the Bible was written part by part over a period of about 1600 years, there was already part of the Bible written at the time in which others wrote new inspired books. For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today. In reality, when Jesus lived as a human, the Scriptures that we call the Old Testament were already complete and he read and studied them.

Although I will talk about other prophecies later, I would like to mention three of them that are especially striking:

1) Did you know that Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah? How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E.?

2) Did you know that the Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment?

3) Did you know that the prophet Isaiah predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack?

When we Witnesses see prophecies like these fulfilled, our confidence that the Bible is more than just a book written by men increases. What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #11

Post by nobspeople »

Eloi wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:19 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:50 am [Replying to Eloi in post #1]
What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?
For some people, we might have to first, define terms like 'prophecies' and 'fulfillment', based on my experience here.
Additionally, you might have to show said examples for a direct comment.

Avoiding that, some possible responses could be:
1) What do you say about other religious prophecies and their fulfillment? Are they not true if they don't align with the ones in the bible?

2) Coincidence

3) Challenge of it being both a prophecy and being fulfilled (where's the proof, how do you know it was fulfilled, et al)

4) Misunderstanding of the reading of the text (in the prophecy itself, it being fulfilled and the fulfillment action itself)

There might be other responses, but without specifics these should suffice.
Very interesting those possible explanations of what would be, for others, the fulfillment of prophecies.

Can you tell me which of those justifications you could apply to any of the three fulfilled biblical prophecies that I talk about in the initial post of the topic?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).
Assuming all are real and happened: perhaps it's all self fulfilling prophecy, as it were?
I don't doubt that somewhere, there may be some that can 'see the future' (if this is what you mean here) that have existed throughout time (anything's possible). That doesn't mean the christian god is real. Which, to me, is the bigger issue.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #12

Post by bluegreenearth »

Eloi wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:34 pm What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?
You will find a variety of alternative explanations to consider here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies

Are you open to the possibility of the belief in Biblical prophecies and their fulfillment being mistaken?

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #13

Post by Clownboat »

bluegreenearth wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:17 am
Eloi wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:34 pm What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?
You will find a variety of alternative explanations to consider here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies

Are you open to the possibility of the belief in Biblical prophecies and their fulfillment being mistaken?
From my experience, you might as well be asking him if he wants to burn in hell for eternity.
Being set free from Christianity is hard!!!
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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #14

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #13]
From my experience, you might as well be asking him if he wants to burn in hell for eternity.
Gotta' keep those self thinkers in check with eternal threats of death!! Not much more reason to convert and give your time, money and mental fortitude to a bunch o' dudes in robes!
Being set free from Christianity is hard!!!
Thankfully, this isn't true for everyone!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #15

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Word of men. Just like the Quran or Tripitaka. Next question?

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #16

Post by Eloi »

Any non-theist rational thinker do have an explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #17

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Eloi wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:14 pm Any non-theist rational thinker do have an explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).


3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).
What confirmatory data, beyond the book making the claim/s have you found in support of your notions here?
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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #18

Post by Eloi »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:20 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:14 pm Any non-theist rational thinker do have an explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).


3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).
What confirmatory data, beyond the book making the claim/s have you found in support of your notions here?
Do you know what a prophecy is?

A prophecy is, in my own words, something that is predicted in some details some time after the fact ocurred.

To know about the biblical prophecies we just need to know the date the prophecy was mentioned in a biblical book and the date of the historical event that fulfilled the prophecied event.

Now: do you have any explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #19

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Eloi wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:27 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:20 pm
Eloi wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:14 pm Any non-theist rational thinker do have an explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).
What confirmatory data, beyond the book making the claim/s have you found in support of your notions here?
Do you know what a prophecy is?

A prophecy is, in my own words, something that is predicted in some details some time after the fact ocurred.
Some folks confuse prophecy with truth.
To know about the biblical prophecies we just need to know the date the prophecy was mentioned in a biblical book and the date of the historical event that fulfilled the prophecied event.

Now: do you have any explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).
Me: Can you confirm that bunch of claims without referring to the book making em?

Claimant: All we need to do is look at the book making the claims and find out which date, in the book making the claims, did the claims that book making the claims we're claimed, by the book making a the claims, to've occurred. According to the book making the claims.

I'm curious to know how many bridges you currently own.

My point here is that you're relying on a book that wasn't complied until after the events in question.

We have no way to cross examine these folks to know their words and thoughts were accurately recorded, nevermind an inability to confirm they even existed.

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Re: The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

Post #20

Post by Eloi »

You are not answering any of the questions in the topic.

Let's start here: it is a known historical fact that Christians fled to Pella before Romans destroyed Jerusalem and escaped the massacre. They did so because Jesus told them, more than 30 years before, that they should flee the city and its sorroundings when they saw the specific signs he gave them.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.
... 24:1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (...) 15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

So, again: Any non-theist rational thinker do have an explanation for these biblical prophecies that came to happen hundreds of years ago?

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