The Bible, the word of God or the word of men?

[Eloi]

Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Bible as the Word of God that he inspired to be written to instruct his people. That is the direct cause that our people are so different from other religious communities around the world. For example: all Witnesses preach, no Witnesses participate in military matters, we are totally neutral in political matters, etc. I am not talking about a few individuals or small groups of fellow believers with the same principles or beliefs, I am talking about a worldwide community where the more than 8.5 million counted as Jehovah's Witnesses are dedicated, baptized and active public preachers. Furthermore, we all study the same teachings week after week all over the planet. They are direct effects of seriously considering all biblical matters.

Aside from the direct results of being fully guided by the Scriptures, what other evidence do we Witnesses have to consider the Bible as the Word of God? I would like to talk about them little by little on this topic, and although some do not agree, at least you will know what reasons we have for having this point of view on the Bible. First thing, to start on one specific point: prophecies.

To understand the matter of the prophecies that Jehovah's prophets gave in their books, we must first understand one thing: since the Bible was written part by part over a period of about 1600 years, there was already part of the Bible written at the time in which others wrote new inspired books. For example, at the time that Daniel was living in Babylon, he was holding in his hands part of the book that Jeremiah had written some years earlier. This process of writing to join with what has already been written continued throughout the time that the Bible was being completed until it was what we know today. In reality, when Jesus lived as a human, the Scriptures that we call the Old Testament were already complete and he read and studied them.

Although I will talk about other prophecies later, I would like to mention three of them that are especially striking:

1) Did you know that Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah? How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E.?

2) Did you know that the Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment?

3) Did you know that the prophet Isaiah predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack?

When we Witnesses see prophecies like these fulfilled, our confidence that the Bible is more than just a book written by men increases. What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

[Miles]

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This sound like a whole lot of preaching. What is it you wanted to debate?


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[Eloi]

More "preaching" than that you atheist do in this forum? Impossible.

The question is at the end of my post. Did you read it until the end. I doubt it.

[Miles]

More "preaching" than that you atheist do in this forum? Impossible.

The question is at the end of my post. Did you read it until the end. I doubt it.

Ah, your question: "What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?" All you're asking for is what they said.

So if critic A says 1234, and critic B says 5678, and assuming this is what they actually said, what's to debate?




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[TRANSPONDER]

More "preaching" than that you atheist do in this forum? Impossible.

The question is at the end of my post. Did you read it until the end. I doubt it.

I'm glad that you put 'preaching' in quotes. There is a difference between "preaching" delivering arguments persistently as atheist apologists do and Preaching of faith claims. Though to be fair, "preaching" by believers in the form of arguing their case is just what atheists do, and that's how it should be.

As to the end of your Original post, I'd argue that prophecies do not make for the Christian case. There are too many OT prophecies that are wrong, such as Tyre was rebuilt and Babylon was not destroyed by the Persians (which I take it is what the prophecy says), and too many NT prophecies that are fiddled, such as the massacre of Innocents and the prophecies around death of Judas (Luke and Matthew). Never mind John's rather ludicrous effort to have Caiaphas uttering a prophecy about the Church.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]

What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

For some people, we might have to first, define terms like 'prophecies' and 'fulfillment', based on my experience here.
Additionally, you might have to show said examples for a direct comment.

Avoiding that, some possible responses could be:
1) What do you say about other religious prophecies and their fulfillment? Are they not true if they don't align with the ones in the bible?

2) Coincidence

3) Challenge of it being both a prophecy and being fulfilled (where's the proof, how do you know it was fulfilled, et al)

4) Misunderstanding of the reading of the text (in the prophecy itself, it being fulfilled and the fulfillment action itself)

There might be other responses, but without specifics these should suffice.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #1]

What do critics of the Bible say about biblical prophecies and their fulfillment?

For some people, we might have to first, define terms like 'prophecies' and 'fulfillment', based on my experience here.
Additionally, you might have to show said examples for a direct comment.

Avoiding that, some possible responses could be:
1) What do you say about other religious prophecies and their fulfillment? Are they not true if they don't align with the ones in the bible?

2) Coincidence

3) Challenge of it being both a prophecy and being fulfilled (where's the proof, how do you know it was fulfilled, et al)

4) Misunderstanding of the reading of the text (in the prophecy itself, it being fulfilled and the fulfillment action itself)

There might be other responses, but without specifics these should suffice.

Very interesting those possible explanations of what would be, for others, the fulfillment of prophecies.

Can you tell me which of those justifications you could apply to any of the three fulfilled biblical prophecies that I talk about in the initial post of the topic?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).

[JoeyKnothead]

Is the bible the word of God, or men?

Gutenberg.

[JoeyKnothead]

Can you tell me which of those justifications you could apply to any of the three fulfilled biblical prophecies that I talk about in the initial post of the topic?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

Is there any data that can support this, beyond tales told after the 'fact'?

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

Please present documentary evidence confirmably dated prior to the events in question.

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).

Please present supporting data.

[brunumb]

Can you tell me which of those justifications you could apply to any of the three fulfilled biblical prophecies that I talk about in the initial post of the topic?

1) Daniel predicted the time when Jesus would appear as Messiah, and the time of his death. How did Daniel know that the Messiah would appear in 29 C.E. (Dan. 9:24-27).

2) Christians were not destroyed when the Romans attacked Jerusalem in 70 C.E. because Jesus told them more than thirty years before that they had to flee out of there at the right moment. (Mat. 23:37,38; 24:1-3,15-22). Even Daniel had already spoken before the destruction of Jerusalem, when it had not even been rebuilt (Dan. 9:26b).

3) Isaiah, the biblical prophet of Jehovah, predicted more than a century and a half earlier how Babylon would be conquered by the Medo-Persians and even predicted the name of the man who would be directly responsible for that attack (Is. 44:24-45:4).

Your response demonstrates a commonly held misconception of the meaning of biblical prophecies. They are not predictions of the future.
https://peteenns.com/prophecies-arent-p ... he-future/

Prophecies are conditional statements. Predictive prophecies explain what is on offer, not what has already been decided. See Jeremiah Chapter 26.

Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present. The potential of future disaster is meant to change current behavior, to motivate people to repent, to turn back to God, and to live in a way that will persuade God to hold back judgment.

Prophets want to activate certain behaviors in their audiences, not prognosticate future events. They are like parents warning children against foolish behavior and encouraging good behavior, not weather forecasters attempting to tell you whether or not you’ll need an umbrella at noontime tomorrow.