Should we expect a Christian organization to protect children better than this?

[Tcg]

.
Some argue that sexual abuse takes place in many organizations and that we shouldn't expect Christian organizations to be any different. Recent evidence, however, reveals that one specific Christian organization has the worst record for sexual abuse of children outside of only the "circle of family and friends."

More than 200,000 children sexually abused by French Catholic clergy, landmark report finds

Presenting the findings of the investigation on Tuesday, Sauvé said children were more likely to be abused within Catholic Church settings than in state-run schools or in summer camps -- or in any setting other than the family.

"The Catholic Church is, after the circle of family and friends, the environment where the prevalence of abuses is the highest by a significant margin," Sauvé told a news conference.

The problem was systemic, and the sexual violence was not limited to "a few black sheep that strayed from the flock," Sauvé told CNN ahead of the report's publication. "When it was informed of abuses, [the Church] did not take the strict measures necessary to protect children from predators."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/05/europe/f ... index.html

Of course we know that the Catholic church is not the only Christian organization where both sexual abuse of children and its systematic cover-up have taken place. Both the JWs and Southern Baptists have been in the news lately with reports of both.

If the claim that Christianity leads to more moral living is true, should we expect this finding?

Should we expect a Christian organization to protect children better than this?


Tcg

[benchwarmer]

...
What laws are we to follow and how do we know? If you say 'read the whole Bible' again, I think readers will clearly see what's happening.

My point was, the law is valid, but not all are judges set by God. This means, it is for example still wrong to murder, but, if you are not a judge, set by God, then your job is not to judge, even if someone has done wrong things. And, if you believe God set you to be judge, I think you should follow all the rules Bible has for judges.

I don't say you can't judge, but if you do so, it would be good to know also this:

...whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you."
Mat. 7:1-2

And you are still missing the point.

Is it lawful to wear cotton polyester underwear?

I'm not asking you who get's to judge people's underwear choice, I'm asking you about the law. The Bible is clear on the above question, yet many Christians ignore it. Are they breaking the law or not? Again, I'm not asking anyone to judge these people, I simply want a ruling on what the law says or does not say.

[1213]

...And you are still missing the point.

Ok, sorry.

Is it lawful to wear cotton polyester underwear?

I'm not asking you who get's to judge people's underwear choice, I'm asking you about the law. The Bible is clear on the above question, yet many Christians ignore it. Are they breaking the law or not? Again, I'm not asking anyone to judge these people, I simply want a ruling on what the law says or does not say.

If the question is only about what is good and right according to the law, then I think for example it is like Jesus said:

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

The problem with this is what is meant with the law. One could say it is only the Ten Commandments, because that is what was written in the stone tablets as the conditions of the covenant God made through Moses.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain, and stay here, and I will give you the tables of stone with the law and the commands that I have written, that you may teach them."
Exodus 24:12
Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

Because of that, I think at least the ten commandments are the law of God. Different thing is, are all the other rules also the law. I think it would be better to keep them all. But as you can notice from the Mat. 5:17-19, they are not the condition for to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And for person who thinks, should he keep them, I would say, good way is to think, is it good rule or not and why. I don't see any of the rules bad, therefore no good reason to not keep them.

And for example, the question: "lawful to wear cotton polyester underwear?". Firstly, I would read carefully what the Bible actually says, has it even the word polyester. Then I would think, is it a problem not to wear such underwear, if it looks like it is bad according to the Bible. I would also think, what could be the reason for the rule, is there actually some good reason for that. I believe God has a good reason for all His rules. That is why I want to go by them. But, in any case, it is not lawful, if Bible tells it is not lawful.

[benchwarmer]

...And you are still missing the point.

Ok, sorry.

No worries, it happens.

And for example, the question: "lawful to wear cotton polyester underwear?". Firstly, I would read carefully what the Bible actually says, has it even the word polyester.

No, the Bible does not have the word 'polyester'. However, it does not need to. Surely you are familiar with the following as it's brought up quite often in apologetic debates about the law:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

19 You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.

Cotton and polyester are two different materials. Followers of the law are allowed to wear polyester only underwear or cotton only underwear (or any other single material fabric).

Then I would think, is it a problem not to wear such underwear, if it looks like it is bad according to the Bible. I would also think, what could be the reason for the rule, is there actually some good reason for that. I believe God has a good reason for all His rules. That is why I want to go by them. But, in any case, it is not lawful, if Bible tells it is not lawful.

It's a little hard to tell with all the waffling, but you seem to be agreeing that if the rule is in the Bible, it's valid law.

I believe you have answered my original question, but it really doesn't get us anywhere. You seem to be reluctantly admitting that if the rule is in the Bible, it's valid law. However, my real question was how does one determine which law is REALLY valid when there are conflicts? This of course comes into another question: Does God change His mind? In other words, if God at one point decrees something is 'good', why would it suddenly not be 'good' later?

The usual apologetic (which I find completely 'weak tea') is that God makes the rules according to where the people are in their current situation. That basically amounts to admitting that it's really the men of the time making the rules. If a god is making the rules, they should be perfect for all times and all peoples. i.e. the gold standard. If it's ever wrong to own other people, it should always be that way. God condoning current poor behavior does not inspire people to attain perfection. One would think that any rules decreed by God would be to lead people to perfection from wherever they happen to be.

[brunumb]

I would also think, what could be the reason for the rule, is there actually some good reason for that. I believe God has a good reason for all His rules.

The most powerful and intelligent being in existence is concerned about a tribe of minimally intelligent beings wearing clothing of mixed fibres. Too funny. Another argument for the non-existence of Yahweh/Jehovah/God.

[brunumb]

...if the one part of the Bible directs you to kill homosexuals, how does reading the whole book change that?...

By reading the whole book, you could see, who has the right, who are judges by that law and what are the rules for judges.

Leviticus 20:13, states in no uncertain terms that homosexuals should be killed:

“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

Where is there any reference to judging or who has the right to judge? It's quite explicit concerning what must be done. There is nothing to even suggest that you have to read the rest of the Bible for the fine print exceptions or whatever. If there were any special conditions that applied they would surely be there would they not? It's not a trivial matter that should be left to chance. "Oh, I'm sorry I killed them. I didn't know there was another bit to read. Besides, like most people, I can't read".

[1213]

...Where is there any reference to judging or who has the right to judge? ...

I think this indicates there were judges and not all people were judges:

Judges and officers shall you make you in all your gates, which Yahweh your God gives you, according to your tribes; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.
Deu. 16:18

And there should have been fair trial, not lynching mob:

I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brothers, and judge righteously between a man and his brother, and the foreigner who is living with him. You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike; you shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.
Deu 1:16:17

and the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness is a false witness, and has testified falsely against his brother; then shall you do to him, as he had thought to do to his brother: so shall you put away the evil from the midst of you.
Deu. 19:18-19

Thus has Yahweh of Hosts spoken, saying, ‘Execute true judgment, and show kindness and compassion every man to his brother.
Zec. 7:9

So, before you are going to judge anyone, ask yourself a question, are you a judge charged by the God, Is there reliable witnesses for the crime and is there good reason not to be merciful. Are you even a Jew?

[1213]

...Cotton and polyester are two different materials. ...

If you think so, then it would be best that you don't use clothes made of those two. But, maybe they are not really different materials, if they both are thread.

... my real question was how does one determine which law is REALLY valid when there are conflicts? ...

Please give one example?

[benchwarmer]

...Cotton and polyester are two different materials. ...

If you think so, then it would be best that you don't use clothes made of those two. But, maybe they are not really different materials, if they both are thread.

Thread is not a material, it is format.

By your logic, you should not wear any clothes with buttons because buttons are not cloth.

You still seem to be sidestepping the main point here. HOW do we determine which laws are valid? And now I have to ask, how does one determine what a law actually means? You are obviously now sure about the one regarding mixed fabrics.

... my real question was how does one determine which law is REALLY valid when there are conflicts? ...

Please give one example?

Just one? Sure.

Bacon, legal to eat or not?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Here we have Jesus who said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Yet, we have the author of Mark saying Jesus is undoing God's law (and calling God dull at the same time). So, what's the verdict if one wants to follow the law? Believe the author of Mark or believe the author of Leviticus?

[brunumb]

...Where is there any reference to judging or who has the right to judge? ...

I think this indicates there were judges and not all people were judges:

Judges and officers shall you make you in all your gates, which Yahweh your God gives you, according to your tribes; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.
Deu. 16:18

And there should have been fair trial, not lynching mob:

I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brothers, and judge righteously between a man and his brother, and the foreigner who is living with him. You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike; you shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.
Deu 1:16:17

and the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness is a false witness, and has testified falsely against his brother; then shall you do to him, as he had thought to do to his brother: so shall you put away the evil from the midst of you.
Deu. 19:18-19

Thus has Yahweh of Hosts spoken, saying, ‘Execute true judgment, and show kindness and compassion every man to his brother.
Zec. 7:9

So, before you are going to judge anyone, ask yourself a question, are you a judge charged by the God, Is there reliable witnesses for the crime and is there good reason not to be merciful. Are you even a Jew?

No one is talking about lynch mobs or trials or who gets to judge but you. The Bible decrees that homosexuals must be killed. So, even without a lynch mob and even after finding suitable judges and having trials or whatever, homosexuals must be killed. All you have done is attempted to distract from the real issue here.

[1213]

...
Bacon, legal to eat or not?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Here we have Jesus who said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Yet, we have the author of Mark saying Jesus is undoing God's law (and calling God dull at the same time). So, what's the verdict if one wants to follow the law? Believe the author of Mark or believe the author of Leviticus?

I think this means, don't eat anything unclean. If something is made clean, then it is not unclean and it is not a problem to eat it. And if you think something is still unclean, don't eat it.

Also, by what I see, Jesus is speaking, what defiles human. And he says it means:

… “That which proceeds out of the man, that defiles the man.For from within, out of the hearts of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, sexual sins, murders, thefts, covetings, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
Mark. 7:20-23

So, because of that we can think, eating doesn't defile man spiritually.