If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

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tonjun
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If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #1

Post by tonjun »

God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
- Numbers 23:19

If Jesus is God, how is it that one moment he's here for the Israelites only; but in the next couple centuries he's here for the Gentiles?

I thought the Bible spells out that God does not change His mind.
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
- Matthew 15: 21-24

It's obvious that Jesus does change his mind. Changes from being here for the lost sheep of Israel to now being here for the Gentiles; a change.

This is not aligned with what Number 23:19 describes as God's nature; a contradiction. A misleading form of religion with false teachings.

Clearly Jesus is not God.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #11

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:16 pmCanonical or not the Bible says differently.

1 Samuel 15:35
"Samuel never saw Saul again before he died, but he grieved over Saul. However, the Lord regretted making Saul king over Israel."

In regretting, god changed his mind about his judgment in making Saul king over Israel. At first he thought it a good move; however, later on he changed his mind and thought it a bad move. Hence the regret.[/indent]


Then there are the several outright statements about god changing his mind.

Amos 7:1-3
I had a vision from the Sovereign Lord. In it I saw him create a swarm of locusts just after the king's share of the hay had been cut and the grass was starting to grow again. 2 In my vision I saw the locusts eat up every green thing in the land, and then I said, “Sovereign Lord, forgive your people! How can they survive? They are so small and weak!” The Lord changed his mind and said, “What you saw will not take place.”

Jeremiah 42:10
‘If you will stay in this land, then I will build you up and not tear you down. I will plant you and not pull you up by the roots. For I will change My mind about the trouble that I have given you.

Jonah 3:10
10 God saw what the people did. He saw that they stopped doing evil. So God changed his mind and did not do what he planned. He did not punish the people.

.
So first and foremost I'm going to admit this is a massive stretch, but I think it is possible to see it this way.

Notice that whenever God changes his mind, it's the result of a human being. Either by pleading with him or by making a point, the human changes God's mind. If the result of free will is that God honestly doesn't know what people will do (I admit that's counter-indicated by what Christians say about their own God but bear with me) then it's possible for God to apparently change his mind by interacting with a human. However, he always knew, if the human did this, I will do that; he had a contingency for every possible action, but he didn't know which one the human would take.

He could also just be lying and that's not really a stretch. God may know that threats work, so he occasionally threatens to do things he has no intention of ever doing to get people to shape up.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #12

Post by tonjun »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:17 pm Now, I am not an authority in any sense because I don't believe any of this, but here is how I see it.

The God of the Jews is only for the Jews, period. This god wants more worship so he lies and says worship him and he'll save you no matter who you are. Only Jews go to Heaven. As a non-Semitic, you cannot go to Heaven. You are a descended from pre-Adamic man and not even technically human. What the Biblical extended canon (here meaning the Talmud) regards as human is descended from the line of Adam. You don't go to Heaven, you don't go to Hell, you go nowhere.
The only loose promise I can see that God meant for the Gentiles is in Genesis 12:2-3:
I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”
So I don't know how it's said in Scripture that all non-Jews go to neither to heaven nor hell; but they go nowhere. Although it seems like non-Jews are excluded from the goodness of God with the narrative being heavily focused on the Israelites in the beginning.

I am not one to know exactly who God is and what the real story is, but I sure know Jesus isn't God.

Or he may be lying like you implied. Either way it surmises the same thing.

This loose connection to bless Gentiles is another story.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #13

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tonjun wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:49 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:31 am Yes, it is totally an evasive excuse to claim that the 'situation has changed'. It hasn't. True, Jesus is constantly being shown how more Faithful the gentiles are than the Jews (and worthy of being saved, following Paulinist - christian doctrine) and thus he changes his mind about helping her. It only makes sense (like the agony in the garden and some other scenes) if he does not know everything, even if God does. Clearly to make any sense (as distinct from coming up with irrelevant excuses that explain nothing) much is kept from Jesus.
Well said TRANSPONDER.

@1213 I don't know how a 'situation that has changed' negates the fact that the mind/action hasn't changed.

That's like saying I couldn't have slapped someone across the face, even though I may struck him with an open hand across the face; it's practically the same thing.

Jesus changed his words and his actions. Words and actions that came from his mind; thus a change of mind!

Oh... and on top of a changed mind, the situation has changed. There, are you satisfied I included that in?
It isn't the same thing at all. Slapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing in different words. Saying he wouldn't help the Canaanite women and then saying he would help her is two different things. Sure, the situation changed. she underline the gospel message that Jesus went to the 'lost sheep of Israel' but on the way ran into gentiles who impressed him with their so much greater faith. This requires that Jesus didn't know about her and her faith to begin with which means he can't know everything, even if God does. Yes, her clever remark makes him reconsider; he changes his mind. For reasons, but still he changes it.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #14

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:31 am ...
That he helped the Syrio -phoenecian (Canaanite) woman (after saying that he wouldn't) is irrelevant to being his sent to the lost sheep of Israel. I think that this is proffered (by Matthew, generally) as an explanation as to why, if God knew that he would turn his back on the Jews and embrace the Gentiles as the 'people who are not his people', he bothered with them at all. Again, it makes no sense unless God didn't know that the Jews would reject Jesus, even though (I believe in Mark and other synoptics) it is implied that God deliberately set up talking in parables so that (with a bit of the heart -hardening that God does at need) the majority of Jews would not listen, turn and be saved. In o.w God set out to ensure that the Jews (mostly) would not be saved. ...
It is interesting, why do you claim Jesus said "he wouldn't", when Bible says only "But he answered her not a word"? Sorry, I think your interpretation is wrong.

I don't think "hardening heart" means God ensures that person can't do the right thing. I think the people had good chance, but didn't just like the message.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #15

Post by tonjun »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:12 am It isn't the same thing at all. Slapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing in different words. Saying he wouldn't help the Canaanite women and then saying he would help her is two different things.
Huh? Now you are confusing me. First you agree with me and now you have shifted stances.

You say slapping someone and striking someone across the face "isn't the same thing at all." Then you say "Slapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing..."

I am already perplexed at how your words aren't making sense.

I can see that you're the type of person to say that: the number "2" and the letter "two" are not the same thing at all. They are different because of character form. This is what I'm getting at from you; evasion and departure of real words.

But any logical person knows that the "2" and "two" are the same thing.

Same goes with slapping someone across the face, and striking them with an open hand across the face.

Bringing it back home: a situation that's changed, as well as the mind that's changed.

Thus Jesus changed his mind; got persuaded. Whatsoever. Doesn't negate that the mind hasn't changed.

The mind of Jesus has changed.

And you know what I'm already going to say.

- Numbers 23:19

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #16

Post by Purple Knight »

tonjun wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:47 pmSo I don't know how it's said in Scripture that all non-Jews go to neither to heaven nor hell; but they go nowhere.
I surmise this because the Talmud says only Adamic man is human and only humans go to Heaven. I could be wrong. I'm not an authority. But this is how I see it.

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b.

Now, the typical objection is that the word used, in the original text, specifies Adamic man. People wanting to dismiss the "racist" nature of the text (but, it's not racist, so I'm not sure why they're so upset) point this out.

However, there is a significant amount of text edited out of the Bible. And this is exactly where it shows. Yes, there are pre-Adamic people. Cain married one, from the land of Nod. What would be the purpose of specifying Adamic man if all men are descended from Adam? None. I think if we're to look at the real world as part of Biblical canon, it's obvious that there are many references to people being around who are not Adamic, so many of us are probably non-Adamic people.

It may be more proper to say that Semitic people are the ones called humans. This would include (in addition to Jews) the descendants of Jacob's older brother who God said would be provided with a separate destiny, but not non-Semites. And probably not anyone descended from the line of Cain, being part non-Adamic.

Or the JWs could be right and there is Heaven (Celestial, for only a very very few selects) and also Paradise (earthly, you keep your body), for everyone who is righteous. So it wouldn't matter that you don't have a soul and can't go to Heaven because God will only smite the wicked, so don't be wicked and you won't be struck down.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #17

Post by tonjun »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:04 pm I surmise this because the Talmud says only Adamic man is human and only humans go to Heaven. I could be wrong. I'm not an authority. But this is how I see it.

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b.
I don't really know the Talmud too well. Interesting point to claim. I would have to do more research on this subtopic.

I leave this now to someone else more knowledgeable to answer.

I would only give higher reference to the Bible than that of the Talmud. Maybe in due time I will learn it.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #18

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tonjun wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:03 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:12 am It isn't the same thing at all. Slapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing in different words. Saying he wouldn't help the Canaanite women and then saying he would help her is two different things.
Huh? Now you are confusing me. First you agree with me and now you have shifted stances.

You say slapping someone and striking someone across the face "isn't the same thing at all." Then you say "Slapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing..."

I am already perplexed at how your words aren't making sense.

I can see that you're the type of person to say that: the number "2" and the letter "two" are not the same thing at all. They are different because of character form. This is what I'm getting at from you; evasion and departure of real words.

But any logical person knows that the "2" and "two" are the same thing.

Same goes with slapping someone across the face, and striking them with an open hand across the face.

Bringing it back home: a situation that's changed, as well as the mind that's changed.

Thus Jesus changed his mind; got persuaded. Whatsoever. Doesn't negate that the mind hasn't changed.

The mind of Jesus has changed.

And you know what I'm already going to say.

- Numbers 23:19
Read my lips "It isn't the same thing at all. Slapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing in different words. Saying he wouldn't help the Canaanite women and then saying he would help her is two different things."
a smack on the face and a blow on the face is the same thing.
Saying 'I won't' and then 'I will' is changing the mind.
Two and Two is the same. Flour and Flower (for example) is different. Start with the concepts and that clarifies words that might otherwise be confusing.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #19

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:22 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:31 am ...
That he helped the Syrio -phoenecian (Canaanite) woman (after saying that he wouldn't) is irrelevant to being his sent to the lost sheep of Israel. I think that this is proffered (by Matthew, generally) as an explanation as to why, if God knew that he would turn his back on the Jews and embrace the Gentiles as the 'people who are not his people', he bothered with them at all. Again, it makes no sense unless God didn't know that the Jews would reject Jesus, even though (I believe in Mark and other synoptics) it is implied that God deliberately set up talking in parables so that (with a bit of the heart -hardening that God does at need) the majority of Jews would not listen, turn and be saved. In o.w God set out to ensure that the Jews (mostly) would not be saved. ...
It is interesting, why do you claim Jesus said "he wouldn't", when Bible says only "But he answered her not a word"? Sorry, I think your interpretation is wrong.

I don't think "hardening heart" means God ensures that person can't do the right thing. I think the people had good chance, but didn't just like the message.
I think there's more than that. Jesus refused at first , saying that 'it is not meet to throw the children's meat to the dogs' or something like that. The woman then says that even the dogs can get the scraps and Jesus is so impressed that he changes his mind about helping her. Yes, Matthew 15,24 -on and Mark 7.27 - on. Didn't you know what was in the Bible, are were you hoping that I didn't?

So either Jesus knew he would help her in the end or he didn't. In your view, which is it?

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #20

Post by tonjun »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:41 pm Read my lips ...Start with the concepts and that clarifies words that might otherwise be confusing.
How can I read your lips? Did you post a video moving your mouth prior to this preceding comment? Why don't you start with concepts that clarifies your words which might otherwise be confusing.

I think you have a talent for speaking in ways that are not grounded in reality. And I'm thinking this forum is about facts; not fiction.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:41 pmSlapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing in different words.
Exactly it is the same thing in different words.

Jesus changing his mind and changing with the situation is the same thing in different words.

For we know God cannot change his mind and Jesus is not God. Same thing in different words. Thank you for clarifying.

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