If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

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tonjun
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If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #1

Post by tonjun »

God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
- Numbers 23:19

If Jesus is God, how is it that one moment he's here for the Israelites only; but in the next couple centuries he's here for the Gentiles?

I thought the Bible spells out that God does not change His mind.
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
- Matthew 15: 21-24

It's obvious that Jesus does change his mind. Changes from being here for the lost sheep of Israel to now being here for the Gentiles; a change.

This is not aligned with what Number 23:19 describes as God's nature; a contradiction. A misleading form of religion with false teachings.

Clearly Jesus is not God.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

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Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:48 pm I think there's more than that. Jesus refused at first , saying that 'it is not meet to throw the children's meat to the dogs' or something like that. The woman then says that even the dogs can get the scraps and Jesus is so impressed that he changes his mind about helping her. Yes, Matthew 15,24 -on and Mark 7.27 - on. Didn't you know what was in the Bible, are were you hoping that I didn't? ...
I hope you would know all about the Bible. But, in this case, I don't think it is a correct interpretation that Jesus changed his mind. It is possible that he just didn't want to do it before all the things were said, because there was a lesson.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #22

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:42 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:48 pm I think there's more than that. Jesus refused at first , saying that 'it is not meet to throw the children's meat to the dogs' or something like that. The woman then says that even the dogs can get the scraps and Jesus is so impressed that he changes his mind about helping her. Yes, Matthew 15,24 -on and Mark 7.27 - on. Didn't you know what was in the Bible, are were you hoping that I didn't? ...
I hope you would know all about the Bible. But, in this case, I don't think it is a correct interpretation that Jesus changed his mind. It is possible that he just didn't want to do it before all the things were said, because there was a lesson.
Yes, It the only other possibility I can think of that Jesus knew he's help her and that he was only pretending that he didn't want to to teach the disciples a lesson.

However, there are arguments against that. Why, if he had plenty of time to teach his disciples, hadn't he already taught them the point already? After all, it's not the only time he'd remarked on the more admirable faith of this or that gentile. There are also other examples of him not knowing things like asking who touched him and how long a boy had demons. He'd already know, right? And for those who are not trying to explain away this matter, I'd argue that the whole message of the gospels is that God has given up on the Jews and it is the Gentiles who are more worthy to be God's people. That's message of the Syrio -Phoenecian woman, and it isn't for the disciples; it's for the reader.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #23

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tonjun wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:48 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:41 pm Read my lips ...Start with the concepts and that clarifies words that might otherwise be confusing.
How can I read your lips? Did you post a video moving your mouth prior to this preceding comment? Why don't you start with concepts that clarifies your words which might otherwise be confusing.

I think you have a talent for speaking in ways that are not grounded in reality. And I'm thinking this forum is about facts; not fiction.
I'm sorry if the term is not familiar to you. It means please pay attention to what I'm saying. You seem to have a talent for not doing so.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:41 pmSlapping someone across the face and striking them across the face is the same thing in different words.
Exactly it is the same thing in different words.

Jesus changing his mind and changing with the situation is the same thing in different words.

For we know God cannot change his mind and Jesus is not God. Same thing in different words. Thank you for clarifying.
Changing his mind with a changed situation is still changing his mind. That's the point. if you are now accepting that Jesus changed his mind (adding that there was good reason for him to do so) then you seem to agree with me.
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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #24

Post by tonjun »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #23]

Yup. I do agree now.

I don't know then why the initiative to correct me on a moot point in the beginning: calling me out for saying slapping someone and striking them isn't the same thing.

When the point I was making was in relation to Jesus changing his mind with the situation.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:47 pm I'm sorry if the term is not familiar to you. It means please pay attention to what I'm saying. You seem to have a talent for not doing so.
I am paying attention, and you have used incorrect verbiage. It's not my fault you display improper grammar.

FYI, "read my lips" written in a forum dialogue doesn't mean 'pay attention to what I'm saying." You are just making up a situation that doesn't exist. Like your other arguments.

But I'll accept your apology for making the mistake.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #25

Post by TRANSPONDER »

tonjun wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:55 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #23]

Yup. I do agree now.

I don't know then why the initiative to correct me on a moot point in the beginning: calling me out for saying slapping someone and striking them isn't the same thing.

When the point I was making was in relation to Jesus changing his mind with the situation.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:47 pm I'm sorry if the term is not familiar to you. It means please pay attention to what I'm saying. You seem to have a talent for not doing so.
I am paying attention, and you have used incorrect verbiage. It's not my fault you display improper grammar.

FYI, "read my lips" written in a forum dialogue doesn't mean 'pay attention to what I'm saying." You are just making up a situation that doesn't exist. Like your other arguments.

But I'll accept your apology for making the mistake.
8-) All face -saving wafle and misdirection aside, do we now agree that because of the changed situation (the Syrio -phoenecian woman showing her great Faith or clever repartee) Jesus changed his mind about whether he was going to help her or not? Because that's the only point here.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #26

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:40 pm ...I'd argue that the whole message of the gospels is that God has given up on the Jews ...
If that would be true, why would He have sent Jesus to teach Jews?

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #27

Post by tonjun »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:12 am 8-) All face -saving wafle and misdirection aside, do we now agree that because of the changed situation (the Syrio -phoenecian woman showing her great Faith or clever repartee) Jesus changed his mind about whether he was going to help her or not? Because that's the only point here.
Yes. I agree now.

Plus, I don't see how you'll twist this against me anyhow at this point. So yes, I agree. :D

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #28

Post by historia »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:31 am
Clearly as far as Christian Dogma goes, Jesus is not God, but he draws on knowledge and power from the spirit of God that is operating him.
This is awkwardly phrased, but is roughly the same point I would make here.

In orthodox Christian theology, Jesus is not simply God in a human disguise. Rather, in the Incarnation, the Son has assumed to himself a human nature -- not just a human body, but also a human soul, mind, and will.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (472) summarizes what that entails:
Catechism wrote:
This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man," (Lk 2:52) and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. (cf. Mk 6:38; 8:27; Jn 11:34; etc.) This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave." (Phil 2:7)
This same point can be found in the Reformers -- e.g., Calvin's Commentary on Isaiah:
Calvin wrote:
Thus we see how far the Son of God condescended on our account, so that he not only was willing to be fed on our food, but also, for a time, to be deprived of understanding, and to endure all our weaknesses. (Hebrews 2:14.) This relates to his human nature, for it cannot apply to his Divinity. Of this state of ignorance, in which Christ was for a time, Luke testifies when he says,

And he grew in wisdom, and in stature,
and in favor with God and with man. (Luke 2:52.)

If Luke had merely said that Christ grew, he might have been supposed to mean with men; but he expressly adds, with God. Christ must therefore have been, for a time, like little children, so that, so far as relates to his human nature, he was deficient in understanding.
Arguments like "Jesus changed his mind therefore he can't be God" are, I think, simply based on a shallow and inadequate understanding of the Incarnation as it has been historically understood within orthodox Christianity.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #29

Post by tonjun »

historia wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:20 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:31 am
Clearly as far as Christian Dogma goes, Jesus is not God, but he draws on knowledge and power from the spirit of God that is operating him.
This is awkwardly phrased, but is roughly the same point I would make here.

In orthodox Christian theology, Jesus is not simply God in a human disguise. Rather, in the Incarnation, the Son has assumed to himself a human nature -- not just a human body, but also a human soul, mind, and will.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (472) summarizes what that entails:
Catechism wrote:
This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man," (Lk 2:52) and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. (cf. Mk 6:38; 8:27; Jn 11:34; etc.) This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave." (Phil 2:7)
This same point can be found in the Reformers -- e.g., Calvin's Commentary on Isaiah:
Calvin wrote:
Thus we see how far the Son of God condescended on our account, so that he not only was willing to be fed on our food, but also, for a time, to be deprived of understanding, and to endure all our weaknesses. (Hebrews 2:14.) This relates to his human nature, for it cannot apply to his Divinity. Of this state of ignorance, in which Christ was for a time, Luke testifies when he says,

And he grew in wisdom, and in stature,
and in favor with God and with man. (Luke 2:52.)

If Luke had merely said that Christ grew, he might have been supposed to mean with men; but he expressly adds, with God. Christ must therefore have been, for a time, like little children, so that, so far as relates to his human nature, he was deficient in understanding.
Arguments like "Jesus changed his mind therefore he can't be God" are, I think, simply based on a shallow and inadequate understanding of the Incarnation as it has been historically understood within orthodox Christianity.
Right... You use Biblical scripture to negate Biblical scripture. Exactly what I'm doing here.

While you focus on the text that favors your 'son-god is one' position, I use text that shows Jesus is not God.

If you are right and I am right... that means the Biblical text favors you as well as me; meaning Jesus is not God.

I could really care less how you phrase my position as "shallow and inadequate". I provided text that you cannot erase. That's adequate enough for me.

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Re: If Jesus is God, how can he change his mind?

Post #30

Post by historia »

tonjun wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:36 am
Right... You use Biblical scripture to negate Biblical scripture. Exactly what I'm doing here.

While you focus on the text that favors your 'son-god is one' position, I use text that shows Jesus is not God.
You seem confused. I'm not focusing on any text of the Bible. I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church and John Calvin.
tonjun wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:36 am
If you are right and I am right... that means the Biblical text favors you as well as me; meaning Jesus is not God.
That makes no sense.

What I'm pointing out to you is that orthodox Christian theology holds that in Christ there are two natures: one fully human and the other fully divine.

If you then point to a passage from the Bible that shows Jesus being human, that does not contradict orthodox Christian theology. Christians believe that Jesus has a human nature, and so acted human. There is nothing to "negate" or "erase" about that.

You seem to think this poses a major problem for Christianity, which strongly suggests you have an incomplete understanding of the ideas you are critiquing.

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