Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

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nobspeople
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Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

In a recent, 'hot topic', otseng said: "I have no problem with God being omniscient, the only thing I've mentioned is God not being omnipotent." and can be seen here if interested (or you somehow missed it)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38657&start=120

Notice the bolded section.
Otseng believes, by their own admission, god isn't all powerful. They outline their reasoning based on at least one specific biblical passages about god not being able to lie, but they say it's, basically, 'OK with them' that god is all knowing.

But the bible does seem to indicate god isn't all knowing as well. Or does it?
From the genesis story:
[3:9] But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" - this seems to indicate god didn't know where Adam was - why else would be call to the man? Surely, he could have just went to where he'd know Adam was?
[3:11] He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Again, surely god would know. It could be he wanted Adam to admit it, as god does seem to play games with humanity throughout the bible and seems to love riddles (see here: https://www.gotquestions.org/riddles-in-the-Bible.html). This would be much akin to the 'god doesn't need us to tithe, we need to tithe' reasoning (lucky for god's ledger it seems!).
[3:13] Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" See above reasoning and potential response.
Genesis 3:15 and the following few verses seem to indicate god was angry (or at least annoyed) and kicked them out of the garden.

Now if god is omniscient, this means knowing everything, past, present and future. He would have know where everyone was, what they did, why they did it (and that they would do it), and on and on. There's literally no legitimate need to ask questions when you know the answers. I don't see any reason why Adam or Eve, literally being with god, they'd think 'Well, he won't know we ate it! We'll just act like everything copasetic!"
Some would counter that 'parents do this to their children'. But the whole god/parent comparison isn't legitimate as parents aren't god in any way. Comparing parents and god are like comparing apples to an apple tree.

This is a very amateur look at the 'all knowing' issue, for sure. But when one uses the bible and quotes to create their own paradigm, it's quite easy to do.

Now then, it's quite possible that god is knows all, except for what it chooses not to know. If that's the case, then the term omniscient isn't apt at all.

For discussion: Is the omniscient term completely correct when describing god, or should there be another term to use? Or is it simply god isn't all knowing?
Last edited by nobspeople on Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #51

Post by brunumb »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:54 pm I have never bought, for instance the claim that making himself known to all would somehow abrogate our free will. After all, the repeated claims of evidence that proves God does that aspect in, unless they know, deep down, that it really doesn't, unless you have Faith.
I don't get that either. There are Christians who claim that God/Jesus has revealed himself to them and within the clan that is seen as a wonderful thing. If an atheist suggests that it would benefit all if God/Jesus did the same thing unequivocally for everyone, then the shutters come down and we get all sorts of arguments like loss of free will to counter the suggestion. :?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #52

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:54 pm
I am of course not advocating Mind Control or some sort of Totalitarian Theocratic Authority.
That is exactly what you are advocating, whether or not you know it or not. You are suggesting that the best "solution" to rebellion is preemptive judgement. You are advocating not only the suspension of individual autonomy (I choose to be an atheist) by the removal of that choice but even the EXISTENCE of the possibility of that choice (I see that baby will choose to be an atheist: kill it now!) You think that the best thing would be for God to give us the ability to choose but to look ahead and zap anything and anyone that may lead to choices that he does not approved of. If you don't call that tyranny, what do you call it?

All the utterly imebecilic alternatives "He should have removed the snake", "He should have removed the tree"..."He should have stopped the woman" ..."He should have zapped the man" "the garden" "The planet" ad inifinitum...are all variations on the theme of : He should have contolled our choices.

Maybe we have so long lived in mental slavery we have forgotten that choice *is* freedom. Where goes one, so goes the other.












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TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey.
Image
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #53

Post by brunumb »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:54 pm I am of course not advocating Mind Control or some sort of Totalitarian Theocratic Authority.
Of course you're not. That's the sort of thing you expect within extremist sects like the JWs. Oh, wait....
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #54

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:06 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:54 pm
I am of course not advocating Mind Control or some sort of Totalitarian Theocratic Authority.
That is exactly what you are advocating, whether or not you know it or not. You are suggesting that the best "solution" to rebellion is preemptive judgement. You are advocating not only the suspension of individual autonomy (I choose to be an atheist) by the removal of that choice but even the EXISTENCE of the possibility of that choice (I see that baby will choose to be an atheist: kill it now!) You think that the best thing would be for God to give us the ability to choose but to look ahead and zap anything and anyone that may lead to choices that he does not approved of. If you don't call that tyranny, what do you call it?

All the utterly imebecilic alternatives "He should have removed the snake", "He should have removed the tree"..."He should have stopped the woman" ..."He should have zapped the man" "the garden" "The planet" ad inifinitum...are all variations on the theme of : He should have contolled our choices.

Maybe we have so long lived in mental slavery we have forgotten that choice *is* freedom. Where goes one, so goes the other.












JW
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey.
Image
I'm not quite sure what I was saying it wasn't or what you thought I was saying but either it was "making himself known to all" or ensuring there was no tree or snake and so No Fall. Neither of those are totalitarian mind - control; after all, God had told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge and letting everyone know he's real is surely no more mind -control than Christians believing they know he is real. Right?

I don't know what sort of system or activity you thought I had in mind as 'Theocratic Authority...something like JW Control perhaps but Wrong Denomination?, but you don't get to wish it on me. :)

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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #55

Post by JoeyKnothead »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:06 am ...All the utterly imebecilic...
As if, "He's him up there y'all, I promise, and him nor me neither one likes how it is y'all carry on" ain't it the most "utterly imbecilic" utterance any human's ever produced.

Maybe if you'd try to actually learn the reasoning and such behind opposing ideas, you wouldn't risk exposing yourself as an "utter embicile".


(edit out a bit here that kinda got lost in the shuffle, it was that bit up there I was agetting at)
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #56

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #55]

It appears to be standard accepted behaviour that gives the Christian the edge because whilst one cannot refer to Christian denominations as cults [thus the attendees cultists] one is not protected from the same type of personal [by association] attacks coming from Christians.

Such as a recent comment made about all folk who experience OOB are suffering delusion...poor delusional folk...And now this imbecile comment.

No point in complaining. Rules are rules. The Christians need a cheat? So be it.

Suck it up. Sticks and stones....

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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #57

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Thanks all...Yes, our Pal JW, too...as we need the Other Side to put their best case, for your input.

Omniscient is surely good enough. We know what it means and is really God knowing everything from Alpha to Omega before he even started wadding the BB- event into a cosmic snowball out of Quantum foam glued together with Higgs -boson soup. That's what God's plan has to be and anything less, (while it explains a few things) sounds several streets short of a plan.

It was probably inevitable that got from 'God doing it differently if he knew how it would turn out' to the question of 'certain knowledge of God's existence would abrogate Faith' via the apologetics excuse of 'Why God can't intervene', when anyone with a moral code written on their hearts would intervene if they had the power. And I don't think we need spend any further time on the accusation of 'Mind control' :D - we can leave that to Certain Church assemblies with 'Obey! Obey! Obey!! and open your wallets before you go home'.

One of the reasons I'm very thankful to be an atheist is that I now have a choice (within the law) using such power of reasoning and logic as I have and no Organisation telling me what I ought to think. Which isn't the same as making their case. I can read, evaluate and choose, and there is no membership requirement to think as per dogma. Despite what some apologists would have us believe, atheism has no dogma. It really doesn't. It has a mental toolbox of critical thinking and a stock of verified data to work with. It is very liberating and exciting to be able to think and question anything but with the magnetic boots of reasoning to stop us mentally floating off into speculative deep space.

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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #58

Post by otseng »

brunumb wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:23 am That's the sort of thing you expect within extremist sects like the JWs.
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #59

Post by otseng »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:06 am All the utterly imebecilic alternatives ...
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Not sure what "imebecilic" means, but I doubt it will contribute to a civil debate. Please avoid any condescending terminology.

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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

Post #60

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:06 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:54 pm
I am of course not advocating Mind Control or some sort of Totalitarian Theocratic Authority.
That is exactly what you are advocating, whether or not you know it or not. You are suggesting that the best "solution" to rebellion is preemptive judgement. You are advocating not only the suspension of individual autonomy (I choose to be an atheist) by the removal of that choice but even the EXISTENCE of the possibility of that choice (I see that baby will choose to be an atheist: kill it now!) You think that the best thing would be for God to give us the ability to choose but to look ahead and zap anything and anyone that may lead to choices that he does not approved of. If you don't call that tyranny, what do you call it?


{snip}

Maybe we have so long lived in mental slavery we have forgotten that choice *is* freedom. Where goes one, so goes the other.




JW
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey.
Image


I'm sorry maybe I should rephrapse

Alternatives such as "He should have removed the snake", "He should have removed the tree"..."He should have stopped the woman" ..."He should have zapped the man" "the garden" "The planet" ad inifinitum...are all variations on the theme of : He should have contolled our choices. These arguments are illogical, totally impractical and if followed through to their natural conclusion would be laughable if they were not so dangerous.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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