Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

[nobspeople]

In a recent, 'hot topic', otseng said: "I have no problem with God being omniscient, the only thing I've mentioned is God not being omnipotent." and can be seen here if interested (or you somehow missed it)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38657&start=120

Notice the bolded section.
Otseng believes, by their own admission, god isn't all powerful. They outline their reasoning based on at least one specific biblical passages about god not being able to lie, but they say it's, basically, 'OK with them' that god is all knowing.

But the bible does seem to indicate god isn't all knowing as well. Or does it?
From the genesis story:
[3:9] But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" - this seems to indicate god didn't know where Adam was - why else would be call to the man? Surely, he could have just went to where he'd know Adam was?
[3:11] He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Again, surely god would know. It could be he wanted Adam to admit it, as god does seem to play games with humanity throughout the bible and seems to love riddles (see here: https://www.gotquestions.org/riddles-in-the-Bible.html). This would be much akin to the 'god doesn't need us to tithe, we need to tithe' reasoning (lucky for god's ledger it seems!).
[3:13] Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" See above reasoning and potential response.
Genesis 3:15 and the following few verses seem to indicate god was angry (or at least annoyed) and kicked them out of the garden.

Now if god is omniscient, this means knowing everything, past, present and future. He would have know where everyone was, what they did, why they did it (and that they would do it), and on and on. There's literally no legitimate need to ask questions when you know the answers. I don't see any reason why Adam or Eve, literally being with god, they'd think 'Well, he won't know we ate it! We'll just act like everything copasetic!"
Some would counter that 'parents do this to their children'. But the whole god/parent comparison isn't legitimate as parents aren't god in any way. Comparing parents and god are like comparing apples to an apple tree.

This is a very amateur look at the 'all knowing' issue, for sure. But when one uses the bible and quotes to create their own paradigm, it's quite easy to do.

Now then, it's quite possible that god is knows all, except for what it chooses not to know. If that's the case, then the term omniscient isn't apt at all.

For discussion: Is the omniscient term completely correct when describing god, or should there be another term to use? Or is it simply god isn't all knowing?

[JehovahsWitness]

This forcibly points to a god with limitations on powers and foreknowledge.

Does God know everything before it has happened ?
viewtopic.php?p=848314#p848314

Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey.

Why did God not prohibit Adam and Eve speaking to the snake?
viewtopic.php?p=1040769#p1040769

If God doesn't change His nature, that would account for the hot mess of his administration ever since he led his people out of Egypt.

What "hot mess of his administration" are you refering to?

[Miles]

Deciding on a Flood and carrying it through and only 'repenting' (regretting what he'd done) afterwards indicates a change of mind. ...It makes no sense that he'd go ahead with something he knew he'd regret.

How can a perfect God "regret"?

If the Bible is supposedly wrong in saying god "was sorry," "repented" and "regretted," couldn't it be wrong in saying he is perfect? Sure it could. After all, the word "perfect" doesn't hold any magical power . . . . . . does it?

Looking up the use of the word "perfect" in the Bible I found the following: the Bible does use the word "perfect" in conjunction with god, but in only a single verse is it in direct reference to god himself. (Matthew 5:48 ESV). All the other verses where "perfect" is used in conjunction with god it refers to a specific ability or act of god, not god in toto.

"law" (Psalm 19:7 ESV)
"way" (Psalm 18:30, 2 Samuel 22:31 ESV )
"will" (Romans 12:1-2 ESV)
"people" (Hebrews 10:14 ESV)
"gift" from (James 1:17ESV)
"work" (Deuteronomy 32:4 ESV---which is translated from תָּמִים (tāmîm (H8549) ) that better translates as

1. complete, whole, entire, sound
mmA. complete, whole, entire
mmB. whole, sound, healthful
mmC. complete, entire (of time)
mmD. sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
mmE. what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

Never "perfect," but apparently most commonly as "without blemish."

So it would seem god's perfection takes a back seat to all his "sorrys," "repents" and "regrets: His mistakes.


.

[TRANSPONDER]

This forcibly points to a god with limitations on powers and foreknowledge.

Does God know everything before it has happened ?
viewtopic.php?p=848314#p848314

Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey.

Why did God not prohibit Adam and Eve speaking to the snake?
viewtopic.php?p=1040769#p1040769

If God doesn't change His nature, that would account for the hot mess of his administration ever since he led his people out of Egypt.

What "hot mess of his administration" are you refering to?

Well, you more or less answer that yourself with your link to 'why did God not prohibit Eve from talking to the snake?' The apologetic is pretty much the Free Will apologetic. But the answer is clear to anyone but a devoted Believer - don't have the snake there. For that matter, don't have the tree there. Yes, I know; God has to prepare mankind to deal with moral questions and humanity has to have the ability to choose as 'God doesn't want robots'. But if he knew what the tree and walking, talking snake was going lead to, He surely wouldn't have allowed that to happen. Why burden man with sin for all time, requiring a global extermination of everything not on the Ark and having to create a son to sacrifice to create a loophole in his own laws? See what I mean about a Hot Mess?

[TRANSPONDER]

Deciding on a Flood and carrying it through and only 'repenting' (regretting what he'd done) afterwards indicates a change of mind. ...It makes no sense that he'd go ahead with something he knew he'd regret.

How can a perfect God "regret"?

If the Bible is supposedly wrong in saying god "was sorry," "repented" and "regretted," couldn't it be wrong in saying he is perfect? Sure it could. After all, the word "perfect" doesn't hold any magical power . . . . . . does it?

Looking up the use of the word "perfect" in the Bible I found the following: the Bible does use the word "perfect" in conjunction with god, but in only a single verse is it in direct reference to god himself. (Matthew 5:48 ESV). All the other verses where "perfect" is used in conjunction with god it refers to a specific ability or act of god, not god in toto.

"law" (Psalm 19:7 ESV)
"way" (Psalm 18:30, 2 Samuel 22:31 ESV )
"will" (Romans 12:1-2 ESV)
"people" (Hebrews 10:14 ESV)
"gift" from (James 1:17ESV)
"work" (Deuteronomy 32:4 ESV---which is translated from תָּמִים (tāmîm (H8549) ) that better translates as

1. complete, whole, entire, sound
mmA. complete, whole, entire
mmB. whole, sound, healthful
mmC. complete, entire (of time)
mmD. sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
mmE. what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

Never "perfect," but apparently most commonly as "without blemish."

So it would seem god's perfection takes a back seat to all his "sorrys," "repents" and "regrets: His mistakes.


.

Yes. This touches on out pal JW's other link God being able to know everything doesn't mean that he chooses to know everything. Frankly this is ridiculous at best and a really dishonest excuse at worst. Either God is omniscient or he isn't. If he is able to be omniscient why in the name of wonder wouldn't he want to know EVERYTHING that was going to happen before he even strung the hig -Bosons together? Anything short of that and he's effectively working blind. And to check any attempt to argue that He only chose not to know stuff that he didn't need or want to know, he'd need to know it before he would know what not to know. Don't these people even think this stuff through?

No, they don't or they choose to not think it through even if they've thought it through because the aim and point for them is not to work things out but to come up with religious - polemical excuses that will smooth and dam p-down any doubts and question of the part of the faithful.

Hoo boy.

[JoeyKnothead]

Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?

I prefer to consider it the right term, if only so I'm not asked to help find marbles.

Omniscience is one of those superlatives folks like to tack onto gods they can't show exist. Might as well say God gets him a Brazillian wax every Monday, to start the week off right.

[Miles]

Deciding on a Flood and carrying it through and only 'repenting' (regretting what he'd done) afterwards indicates a change of mind. ...It makes no sense that he'd go ahead with something he knew he'd regret.

How can a perfect God "regret"?

If the Bible is supposedly wrong in saying god "was sorry," "repented" and "regretted," couldn't it be wrong in saying he is perfect? Sure it could. After all, the word "perfect" doesn't hold any magical power . . . . . . does it?

Looking up the use of the word "perfect" in the Bible I found the following: the Bible does use the word "perfect" in conjunction with god, but in only a single verse is it in direct reference to god himself. (Matthew 5:48 ESV). All the other verses where "perfect" is used in conjunction with god it refers to a specific ability or act of god, not god in toto.

"law" (Psalm 19:7 ESV)
"way" (Psalm 18:30, 2 Samuel 22:31 ESV )
"will" (Romans 12:1-2 ESV)
"people" (Hebrews 10:14 ESV)
"gift" from (James 1:17ESV)
"work" (Deuteronomy 32:4 ESV---which is translated from תָּמִים (tāmîm (H8549) ) that better translates as

1. complete, whole, entire, sound
mmA. complete, whole, entire
mmB. whole, sound, healthful
mmC. complete, entire (of time)
mmD. sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
mmE. what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

Never "perfect," but apparently most commonly as "without blemish."

So it would seem god's perfection takes a back seat to all his "sorrys," "repents" and "regrets: His mistakes.


.

Yes. This touches on out pal JW's other link God being able to know everything doesn't mean that he chooses to know everything. Frankly this is ridiculous at best and a really dishonest excuse at worst. Either God is omniscient or he isn't. If he is able to be omniscient why in the name of wonder wouldn't he want to know EVERYTHING that was going to happen before he even strung the hig -Bosons together? Anything short of that and he's effectively working blind. And to check any attempt to argue that He only chose not to know stuff that he didn't need or want to know, he'd need to know it before he would know what not to know. Don't these people even think this stuff through?

No, they don't or they choose to not think it through even if they've thought it through because the aim and point for them is not to work things out but to come up with religious - polemical excuses that will smooth and dam p-down any doubts and question of the part of the faithful.

Hoo boy.

I was going to bring up this very point next time it was mentioned. And "No," these people don't think this stuff through. (I know this was a rhetorical question, but I couldn't help myself. )


.

[JehovahsWitness]

See what I mean about a Hot Mess?

No I do not. Gods handling of matters has been inspired; for he has respected our human rights while according a fireproof solution to the harm caused by those that have made bad choices. Denying free moral agents the freedom to be themselves and make their own choices is the way of slavery. Your "perfect solution" (controlling everything) is at best idiotic and at worst leads to the dangerous "final solution" of tyranny.


JW



RELATED POSTS

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p845975

Why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place?
viewtopic.php?p=389911#p389911

Why did God allow Adam and Eve to rebel?
viewtopic.php?p=389917#p389917

Why did God not prohibit Adam and Eve speaking to the snake?
viewtopic.php?p=1040769#p1040769

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, RESPONSIBILITY and ...THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

[brunumb]

Denying free moral agents the freedom to be themselves and make their own choices is the way of slavery. Your "perfect solution" (controlling everything) is at best idiotic and at worst leads to the dangerous "final solution" of tyranny.

Pretty much the way some religious organisations operate.

[TRANSPONDER]

See what I mean about a Hot Mess?

No I do not. Gods handling of matters has been inspired; for he has respected our human rights while according a fireproof solution to the harm caused by those that have made bad choices. Denying free moral agents the freedom to be themselves and make their own choices is the way of slavery. Your "perfect solution" (controlling everything) is at best idiotic and at worst leads to the dangerous "final solution" of tyranny.


JW



RELATED POSTS

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p845975

Why did God put the tree in the garden in the first place?
viewtopic.php?p=389911#p389911

Why did God allow Adam and Eve to rebel?
viewtopic.php?p=389917#p389917

Why did God not prohibit Adam and Eve speaking to the snake?
viewtopic.php?p=1040769#p1040769

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, RESPONSIBILITY and ...THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

I am of course not advocating Mind Control or some sort of Totalitarian Theocratic Authority. But surely a god who knew from the start how things would turn out, even if he later decided to keep from himself certain knowledge, for some inexplicable reason (explain it to me in terms other than 'God knows what he is doing', if you can) would have found a better way than the Eden screw up, the Flood overkill which he regretted doing (before or after, and the struggle with 'Sin' ever since, requiring a sacrifice of his created avatar to make a loophole in his own Rules.

I have never bought, for instance the claim that making himself known to all would somehow abrogate our free will. After all, the repeated claims of evidence that proves God does that aspect in, unless they know, deep down, that it really doesn't, unless you have Faith.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Omniscient is the right term. There does not need to be another.