In a recent, 'hot topic', otseng said: "I have no problem with God being omniscient, the only thing I've mentioned is God not being omnipotent." and can be seen here if interested (or you somehow missed it)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38657&start=120
Notice the bolded section.
Otseng believes, by their own admission, god isn't all powerful. They outline their reasoning based on at least one specific biblical passages about god not being able to lie, but they say it's, basically, 'OK with them' that god is all knowing.
But the bible does seem to indicate god isn't all knowing as well. Or does it?
From the genesis story:
[3:9] But the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" - this seems to indicate god didn't know where Adam was - why else would be call to the man? Surely, he could have just went to where he'd know Adam was?
[3:11] He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Again, surely god would know. It could be he wanted Adam to admit it, as god does seem to play games with humanity throughout the bible and seems to love riddles (see here: https://www.gotquestions.org/riddles-in-the-Bible.html). This would be much akin to the 'god doesn't need us to tithe, we need to tithe' reasoning (lucky for god's ledger it seems!).
[3:13] Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" See above reasoning and potential response.
Genesis 3:15 and the following few verses seem to indicate god was angry (or at least annoyed) and kicked them out of the garden.
Now if god is omniscient, this means knowing everything, past, present and future. He would have know where everyone was, what they did, why they did it (and that they would do it), and on and on. There's literally no legitimate need to ask questions when you know the answers. I don't see any reason why Adam or Eve, literally being with god, they'd think 'Well, he won't know we ate it! We'll just act like everything copasetic!"
Some would counter that 'parents do this to their children'. But the whole god/parent comparison isn't legitimate as parents aren't god in any way. Comparing parents and god are like comparing apples to an apple tree.
This is a very amateur look at the 'all knowing' issue, for sure. But when one uses the bible and quotes to create their own paradigm, it's quite easy to do.
Now then, it's quite possible that god is knows all, except for what it chooses not to know. If that's the case, then the term omniscient isn't apt at all.
For discussion: Is the omniscient term completely correct when describing god, or should there be another term to use? Or is it simply god isn't all knowing?
Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
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Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #1
Last edited by nobspeople on Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omnipotence the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #31Good; then I rest my case. An omnipotent God could logically be selective in what he chooses to know about the future. End of story. I don't see he would need to know something to choose not to know it; if events are left inseperable from their place in time, he would but have to not look at that "time slot" rather like not reading the last page of a novel to see how it turned out. How would God know which page has which piece of information? I dont know but I do know what the word omnipotent means. It means there is nothing that is beyond such ones power to do. End. Of. Story.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:13 pm
I didn't read it that TP was saying it can't be done. Just that it doesn't make a lot of sense to them
Why he would choose to do so makes perfect sense to me.
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OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Omnipotence the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #32I'm not trying to speak for them, but that's how I initially read it. Reading it again, I could see it differently. I'd be interested to see how TP responds (if they haven't already).JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:35 pmGood; then I rest my case. An omnipotent God could logically be selective in what he chooses to know about the future. End of story. I don't see he would need to know something to choose not to know it; if events are left inseperable from their place in time, he would but have to not look at that "time slot" rather like not reading the last page of a novel to see how it turned out. How would God know which page has which piece of information? I dont know but I do know what the word omnipotent means. It means there is nothing that is beyond such ones power to do. End. Of. Story.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:13 pm
I didn't read it that TP was saying it can't be done. Just that it doesn't make a lot of sense to them
Why he would choose to do so makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: Omnipotence the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #33Thank you for the links, But I'd rather you addressed the points made here, rather than be directed to points that were not validly dealt with in other posts.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:40 pmTRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:06 pm ... I can't imagine how God could keep knowledge from himself.Well done. Here yet again we find the inverted logic. That something does not make any sense does not mean that there is a reason to doubt that it it has any explanatory weight at all, never mind that your being able to explain it means that it is a claim that even you can't make sense of, but it claims (as is so often where we end up) that God knows best and it's true in a way we cannot understand. But if 'We' cannot understand it, why did you claim that it was what God was doing, whatever it was? It looks to me like you are just trying to dismiss compelling conclusions (that the god depicted in the Bible doesn't appear to be omniscient) and saying (effectively) that it is true no matter how it looks. I have seen it so many times before and it is absolutely the last ditch playing of the Faith -card. It only works if (Bible) God is taken as true a priori. Thus (with that mindset) the burden of proof is on the atheist to debunk the God -claim and all the believer has to do is dismiss everything and the Faith -claim (God) remains intact.That may be true but your not being able to fathom how something can be done would not negate an omnipotent God being able to do anything he so wishes; that is unless there is another meaning to omnipotent you have in mind. In short, your not knowing how something is done doesnt mean it cannot be.
But the logic is that 'God' is a claim made by the theists and the burden of proof is on them to validate it.
The Bible is the evidence (backed up by mind -experiments like First Cause) and, if it is called into serious question, then that basis for the question is dismissed in various ways. 'We can know nothing for sure; it's true in ways that only God knows'; 'science and logic are only human inventions'. I've seen them all, and more. And they have no logical validity; they are only Faith -based denial.
Is God SELECTIVE in his use of his powers of foreknowledge?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p848314
How can an OMNISCIENT God not know something?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 98#p894598
How can a perfect God "regret"? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1014669#p1014669
Does God "changing his mind" mean that he ' He failed to get it right the first time'?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p895644To learn more please go to other posts related to...
FREE WILL, OMNISCIENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #34I did have a look at one of those links.
"CONCLUSION verses such as Genesis 6:6 does not support the idea that God makes mistakes or errors, rather it reflects his feelings about the need He saw to "change his mind" as to his intended treatment of humans due to their own wicked actions. See NOTES below viewtopic.php?p=1018449#p1018449"
It appears to support the idea that God can change his mind. Despite pillowing the conclusion with 'his feelings about the need He saw' it still says he changed his mind. Deciding on a Flood and carrying it through and only 'repenting' (regretting what he'd done) afterwards indicates a change of mind. It is the case, right there, but thinking about the implications, it raises doubts and questions about any idea of a creator of everything and one who had it all planned from start to finish before He even began creation. It makes no sense that he'd go ahead with something he knew he'd regret. Even I can see that the solution is to start with Noah, not Adam. Never mind putting the world of Noah back to what it was before the flood and finding another way. Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey. This forcibly points to a god with limitations on powers and foreknowledge. If God doesn't change His nature, that would account for the hot mess of his administration ever since he led his people out of Egypt.
This not meaning (as some have concluded in the past), that I (and other doubters) think that the Events in the Bible happened and God is working blind, but meaning that I see the Bible as a book of (mostly) tall stories, like any other religion.
"CONCLUSION verses such as Genesis 6:6 does not support the idea that God makes mistakes or errors, rather it reflects his feelings about the need He saw to "change his mind" as to his intended treatment of humans due to their own wicked actions. See NOTES below viewtopic.php?p=1018449#p1018449"
It appears to support the idea that God can change his mind. Despite pillowing the conclusion with 'his feelings about the need He saw' it still says he changed his mind. Deciding on a Flood and carrying it through and only 'repenting' (regretting what he'd done) afterwards indicates a change of mind. It is the case, right there, but thinking about the implications, it raises doubts and questions about any idea of a creator of everything and one who had it all planned from start to finish before He even began creation. It makes no sense that he'd go ahead with something he knew he'd regret. Even I can see that the solution is to start with Noah, not Adam. Never mind putting the world of Noah back to what it was before the flood and finding another way. Quite apart from making sure that Adam didn't disobey. This forcibly points to a god with limitations on powers and foreknowledge. If God doesn't change His nature, that would account for the hot mess of his administration ever since he led his people out of Egypt.
This not meaning (as some have concluded in the past), that I (and other doubters) think that the Events in the Bible happened and God is working blind, but meaning that I see the Bible as a book of (mostly) tall stories, like any other religion.
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #35Are you suggesting I made an argument that God cannot change his mind?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am I did have a look at one of those links.
"CONCLUSION verses such as Genesis 6:6 does not support the idea that God makes mistakes or errors, rather it reflects his feelings about the need He saw to "change his mind" as to his intended treatment of humans due to their own wicked actions. See NOTES below viewtopic.php?p=1018449#p1018449"
It appears to support the idea that God can change his mind.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #36I am not a Calvenist, you would perhaps do better addressing the above to someone that believes God " had it all planned from start to finish before He even began creation". I am not of that number.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am ...it raises doubts and questions about any idea of a creator of everything and one who had it all planned from start to finish before He even began creation.
JW
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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #37That was the impression I got. I could be wrong. But if you think that the Bible indicates that God DID change his mind (and so did Jesus) at times, then we can consider the implications of that.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:34 amAre you suggesting I made an argument that God cannot change his mind?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am I did have a look at one of those links.
"CONCLUSION verses such as Genesis 6:6 does not support the idea that God makes mistakes or errors, rather it reflects his feelings about the need He saw to "change his mind" as to his intended treatment of humans due to their own wicked actions. See NOTES below viewtopic.php?p=1018449#p1018449"
It appears to support the idea that God can change his mind.
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #38Indeed, you could be wrong.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:07 pmJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:34 amAre you suggesting I made an argument that God cannot change his mind?
That was the impression I got. I could be wrong.
Re: Can God change his mind?
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:23 am [Replying to post 1 by Willum]
Yes the bible has several examples of God changing his mind.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #39I suppose that it I wasn't wrong about being wrong about you suggesting that God couldn't change his mind, but that' just a generic 'you could be wrong' (about anything). So could you, but I have the evidence -based case and you don't. Otherwise you would have addressed my post about one of your links instead what you actually posted, which was either bewildering or a low blow. .JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:31 amIndeed, you could be wrong.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:07 pmJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:34 amAre you suggesting I made an argument that God cannot change his mind?
That was the impression I got. I could be wrong.
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Re: Omniscient the right term or does there need to be another?
Post #40How can a perfect God "regret"?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am Deciding on a Flood and carrying it through and only 'repenting' (regretting what he'd done) afterwards indicates a change of mind. ...It makes no sense that he'd go ahead with something he knew he'd regret.
viewtopic.php?p=1014669#p1014669
TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am ...it raises doubts and questions about any idea of a creator of everything and one who had it all planned from start to finish before He even began creation.
Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe God has planned and controlled every human action from before creation?
viewtopic.php?p=1053611#p1053611
TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am
Even I can see that the solution is to start with Noah, not Adam.
How is it that evil reemerged after the flood of Noah's day?
viewtopic.php?p=1050342#p1050342
TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:16 am Never mind putting the world of Noah back to what it was before the flood and finding another way.
Finding another way to what?
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8