We've all heard (or maybe have been a part of) the stories where if someone did or didn't do XYZ, they would have died. I've experienced this two or three times myself.
If you ask around, many people have had similar experiences - probably more than you'd think.
Surely, this would be randomness or happenstance being justified by the mind for it to make sense; a form of mental pareidolia in a sense, if you will. Making sense of the apparent senseless, one may say.
Let's ignore the 'who' or 'what', but focus on the 'why'.
Why did one person in a family of four survive the car crash when the other three didn't?
Why did you 'feel like' you should stayed home Friday night and not go to the club the night when a gunman slaughtered dozens there?
Why did your neighbor feel like she had to turn down that road going to work, which is different than her normal route, only to die in a car accident that wouldn't have happened if she wouldn't have been there?
Surely, we don't know all the 'why's', but it seems some people are destined for a particular outcome, be it avoiding the gunman at the club or driving a different route and dying in an accident.
So, IYO (and please state why it's your opinion) are these simply random things, or are we all acting a pre-calculated route to a final end, which we have little to no chance of avoiding?
If you believe in pre-destination, how does that gel with your christian belief (or lack of) as it seems there's some pre-destination in christianity with the crucifixion of jesus being born to be a sacrifice, as they say?
Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #2[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
I remember in my college years driving a classmate home to Montreal during our Christmas break. It was during an unusually cold snap even for Montreal, -25 F. I left his house on Christmas morning. Driving down I-97 in New York there was almost no one else on the road. On that stretch of highway there are guardrails about as often as there aren't. I fell asleep while driving and woke up to the sound of the left side of my car scraping against a guardrail. Fortunately I was able to slow my car and pilot it back to the highway. Had I fallen asleep where there wasn't a guardrail I likely would have ended up in snowy woods where I couldn't get back to I-97. Freezing to death would be a very likely outcome.
Why did I end up hitting that section of guardrail rather than driving off into the woods? Pure blind luck. Any other conclusion would require the existence of a being or force or something that is in charge and would have had to have some reason to protect me personally. My own opinion is that no such being or force exists. I've never encountered any evidence to convince me of any other conclusion.
Tcg
I remember in my college years driving a classmate home to Montreal during our Christmas break. It was during an unusually cold snap even for Montreal, -25 F. I left his house on Christmas morning. Driving down I-97 in New York there was almost no one else on the road. On that stretch of highway there are guardrails about as often as there aren't. I fell asleep while driving and woke up to the sound of the left side of my car scraping against a guardrail. Fortunately I was able to slow my car and pilot it back to the highway. Had I fallen asleep where there wasn't a guardrail I likely would have ended up in snowy woods where I couldn't get back to I-97. Freezing to death would be a very likely outcome.
Why did I end up hitting that section of guardrail rather than driving off into the woods? Pure blind luck. Any other conclusion would require the existence of a being or force or something that is in charge and would have had to have some reason to protect me personally. My own opinion is that no such being or force exists. I've never encountered any evidence to convince me of any other conclusion.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #3Thanks for relaying your experience. To play devil's advocate, as it were, while there may not be a being or force or something that is in charge and had some reason to protect you personally, there's a chance there is. Maybe you had 'something' to do that wouldn't have happened if you died that day. And this 'thing' needed you alive to complete whatever that was?Tcg wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:26 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
I remember in my college years driving a classmate home to Montreal during our Christmas break. It was during an unusually cold snap even for Montreal, -25 F. I left his house on Christmas morning. Driving down I-97 in New York there was almost no one else on the road. On that stretch of highway there are guardrails about as often as there aren't. I fell asleep while driving and woke up to the sound of the left side of my car scraping against a guardrail. Fortunately I was able to slow my car and pilot it back to the highway. Had I fallen asleep where there wasn't a guardrail I likely would have ended up in snowy woods where I couldn't get back to I-97. Freezing to death would be a very likely outcome.
Why did I end up hitting that section of guardrail rather than driving off into the woods? Pure blind luck. Any other conclusion would require the existence of a being or force or something that is in charge and would have had to have some reason to protect me personally. My own opinion is that no such being or force exists. I've never encountered any evidence to convince me of any other conclusion.
Tcg
Of course there's no way to prove it either way - it's all conjecture. And about personal belief, which I respect. Maybe thinking there is something out there with your benefit in mind at that time (for example) is simply a way to make one feel better about the randomness; make 'sense' of it all?
Again, I'm not challenging your POV or opinion. I simply enjoy hearing others' opinions and reasoning.
Thanks again!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #4Your welcome!nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:35 amThanks for relaying your experience. To play devil's advocate, as it were, while there may not be a being or force or something that is in charge and had some reason to protect you personally, there's a chance there is. Maybe you had 'something' to do that wouldn't have happened if you died that day. And this 'thing' needed you alive to complete whatever that was?Tcg wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:26 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
I remember in my college years driving a classmate home to Montreal during our Christmas break. It was during an unusually cold snap even for Montreal, -25 F. I left his house on Christmas morning. Driving down I-97 in New York there was almost no one else on the road. On that stretch of highway there are guardrails about as often as there aren't. I fell asleep while driving and woke up to the sound of the left side of my car scraping against a guardrail. Fortunately I was able to slow my car and pilot it back to the highway. Had I fallen asleep where there wasn't a guardrail I likely would have ended up in snowy woods where I couldn't get back to I-97. Freezing to death would be a very likely outcome.
Why did I end up hitting that section of guardrail rather than driving off into the woods? Pure blind luck. Any other conclusion would require the existence of a being or force or something that is in charge and would have had to have some reason to protect me personally. My own opinion is that no such being or force exists. I've never encountered any evidence to convince me of any other conclusion.
Tcg
Of course there's no way to prove it either way - it's all conjecture. And about personal belief, which I respect. Maybe thinking there is something out there with your benefit in mind at that time (for example) is simply a way to make one feel better about the randomness; make 'sense' of it all?
Again, I'm not challenging your POV or opinion. I simply enjoy hearing others' opinions and reasoning.
Thanks again!
In my college years I also had a roommate who suffered with epilepsy. He was engaged and had plans to become a pastor. He graduated a couple years before me and moved on to seminary. While there his doctors decided he could cease his anti-seizure medication. Sadly he had a seizure and died in his sleep. He too had a 'thing' he needed to be alive to accomplish, namely becoming a husband and a pastor. Obviously he never accomplished that.
Why would my plans and life be more important than Keith's? There is no reason, blind luck in play once again. There is no reason to draw any other conclusion that I have am aware of.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #5[Replying to Tcg in post #4]
Maybe this isn't the best place for this conversation? MODS please feel free to move to an appropriate place as you see necessary.
Maybe not. It's possible he had nothing left to accomplish. Or maybe his death touched someone that needed it at that time who, without his death, wouldn't have received it?He too had a 'thing' he needed to be alive to accomplish, namely becoming a husband and a pastor. Obviously he never accomplished that.
Who's to say your life/plan was more important? Maybe you haven't yet reached the point that you were born to reach - to do or say the thing to the right person? It could be a 'timing' issue more than anything else?Why would my plans and life be more important than Keith's?
Surely that's a possibility. But does 'luck' dictate something (luck) at play, in a sense? If there's nothing at play 'out there', it may not be luck but more randomness?There is no reason, blind luck in play once again.
Maybe this isn't the best place for this conversation? MODS please feel free to move to an appropriate place as you see necessary.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #6I'm with you on that. Happenstance. Once you go down the path of asking those 'whys' there is no end. Every single event and outcome then demands a 'why'. If it's not mere chance, then every single event and outcome requires some overseer controlling everything and we all just become pawns in a giant game.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #7Yes, 'why's' tend to be never ending.brunumb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:48 pmI'm with you on that. Happenstance. Once you go down the path of asking those 'whys' there is no end. Every single event and outcome then demands a 'why'. If it's not mere chance, then every single event and outcome requires some overseer controlling everything and we all just become pawns in a giant game.
Surely we will never answer the last 'why' in a situation as described above as we don't know everything. That doesn't mean there isn't a 'why' out there. Rather or not we find it....?
But then we need to ask: if we know we won't find an answer to 'the last why', is it even worth asking?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #8I think it's always worthwhile asking How, What and Why, because I have come to think that the thing that makes us human is the instinct of Curiosity. When we don't want to discover and learn, anymore, human Life is over, even if existence continues. We are, when the spirit of discovery is gone, on a life support of eat, sleep, work, but we are surviving without any real purpose. Religion may substitute a belief in a better (and never -ending) Life after we die (always supposing they picked the right God) but in my view the curiosity that makes us Human is a price that they often pay, since they Know everything they need to know and don't want to know anything that undercuts that, even if it's demonstrable Fact.nobspeople wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:27 amYes, 'why's' tend to be never ending.brunumb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:48 pmI'm with you on that. Happenstance. Once you go down the path of asking those 'whys' there is no end. Every single event and outcome then demands a 'why'. If it's not mere chance, then every single event and outcome requires some overseer controlling everything and we all just become pawns in a giant game.
Surely we will never answer the last 'why' in a situation as described above as we don't know everything. That doesn't mean there isn't a 'why' out there. Rather or not we find it....?
But then we need to ask: if we know we won't find an answer to 'the last why', is it even worth asking?
And I AM going to spellcheck and not be lazy as my last post (on Death) was a disgrace.
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #9It's my view that, some times, religion tends to circumvent independent thought and curiosity, instead relying on faith and hope (which is often disguised as need and want). I suppose that happens when a belief system seems to show they 'know' all the answers - especially with lazy believers. But when you 'have it all figured out', laziness tends to be the net result.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:50 pmI think it's always worthwhile asking How, What and Why, because I have come to think that the thing that makes us human is the instinct of Curiosity. When we don't want to discover and learn, anymore, human Life is over, even if existence continues. We are, when the spirit of discovery is gone, on a life support of eat, sleep, work, but we are surviving without any real purpose. Religion may substitute a belief in a better (and never -ending) Life after we die (always supposing they picked the right God) but in my view the curiosity that makes us Human is a price that they often pay, since they Know everything they need to know and don't want to know anything that undercuts that, even if it's demonstrable Fact.nobspeople wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:27 amYes, 'why's' tend to be never ending.brunumb wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:48 pmI'm with you on that. Happenstance. Once you go down the path of asking those 'whys' there is no end. Every single event and outcome then demands a 'why'. If it's not mere chance, then every single event and outcome requires some overseer controlling everything and we all just become pawns in a giant game.
Surely we will never answer the last 'why' in a situation as described above as we don't know everything. That doesn't mean there isn't a 'why' out there. Rather or not we find it....?
But then we need to ask: if we know we won't find an answer to 'the last why', is it even worth asking?
And I AM going to spellcheck and not be lazy as my last post (on Death) was a disgrace.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Freedom, destiny or happenstance?
Post #10God was playing favorites?nobspeople wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:01 am We've all heard (or maybe have been a part of) the stories where if someone did or didn't do XYZ, they would have died. I've experienced this two or three times myself.
If you ask around, many people have had similar experiences - probably more than you'd think.
Surely, this would be randomness or happenstance being justified by the mind for it to make sense; a form of mental pareidolia in a sense, if you will. Making sense of the apparent senseless, one may say.
Let's ignore the 'who' or 'what', but focus on the 'why'.
Why did one person in a family of four survive the car crash when the other three didn't?
No pre-calculation at all. Pre-calculation implies intent; however, events, all events, are predetermined by antecedant events (causes).Why did you 'feel like' you should stayed home Friday night and not go to the club the night when a gunman slaughtered dozens there?
Why did your neighbor feel like she had to turn down that road going to work, which is different than her normal route, only to die in a car accident that wouldn't have happened if she wouldn't have been there?
Surely, we don't know all the 'why's', but it seems some people are destined for a particular outcome, be it avoiding the gunman at the club or driving a different route and dying in an accident.
So, IYO (and please state why it's your opinion) are these simply random things, or are we all acting a pre-calculated route to a final end, which we have little to no chance of avoiding?
Ah, this was for Christians . . . . . never mind.If you believe in pre-destination, how does that gel with your christian belief (or lack of) as it seems there's some pre-destination in christianity with the crucifixion of jesus being born to be a sacrifice, as they say?
.